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SemoreJugs

Respect for others on Rainier

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Attention to all climbers and especially climbing rangers and mountain guides, your input to the following would be greatly appreciated:

 

I am writing this to raise awareness and hope it will prevent future accidents. Based on what I experienced this Sunday, I feel compelled to speak out. I know I am going to get shit for writing this but I believe its worth it if it will prevent senseless accidents from occurring.

 

The Emmons route is becoming a speedway on the weekends due to the excellent conditions, weather, and crowds that it attracts. Its only a matter of time before there is a catastrophe.

 

This Sunday, I was on the Emmons Glacier route, which we shared with over 100 climbers. It seemed pretty dangerous. From about 1 AM until sunrise there was a continuous line of uninterrupted headlamps from Emmons flats all the way to the upper mountain. You couldn’t tell where the headlamps ended and the stars began. It was quite surreal. I kept thinking about all the accident reports I have read and this sounded like a classic case of overcrowding and lack of regard for one’s actions in respect to others.

 

I saw a lot of scary, dangerous, and inconsiderate shit happen on Sunday and Monday. However, most people I met on the mountain were great, considerate, and had a respectful attitude. It was just a handful of climbers that really did some questionable things. But that’s all it takes for a tragedy to occur on a crowded route.

 

At least one and maybe another rope team passed us by moving above us on the high side of the slope, even though there was ample room downslope to pass. I am always happy to let faster parties pass if there is a safe spot to stop, but jesus christ its a favor, so please dont endanger me and my friends by passing upslope of us. If you fall while next to us, you are going to come across our rope and likely take us down with you. Always pass another party by staying downslope if it is possible. If it is not possible, make sure the party you are passing is comfortable with you passing above.

 

A member of my team took a little slip and pulled me off my feet as well, around 11,500. We were able to self-arrest quickly but it really hit home that even on a “tame” route like the Emmons, shit can happen even on 20-30 degree slopes when its icy. Combine that with an overcrowded situation, good weather (which will make people underestimate the mountain), lack of respect for the mountain and other climbers, and inexperienced climbers--something really bad (epic proportions) could happen soon. There have been a string of accidents lately and I’m afraid the good weather is going to only make the overcrowding worse.

 

I hope I am wrong but lets plan for the worst to prevent this!

 

On Monday, we were coming down from Schurman. The main way to get to the inter glacier is to descend the Emmons to the east for a few hundred feet and then to climb a loose talus slope. The slope is 3rd to 4th class and bottoms out into a deep moat. So a fall here would be bad. There is a fairly well worn trail here and the NPS even has a few wands to mark the route up higher, which traverses up and right.

 

As we were unroping to do the unprotected climb, we allowed a party of two to pass us. I wont mention names but you should know who you are. They started going up, but then I was a bit baffled when they failed to move to the right where the established trail was. I figured maybe they were a bit sketched out and were afraid to traverse. They were kicking down a lot of rocks. Then they disappeared and the rockfall stopped. We figured they got past the loose section. As we were waiting for them, another group queued up behind us. We figured that we had better get moving because even still more parties were on their way. There were 4 climbers in our party and we figured the most efficient and safest way was to have two people ascend at a time close together. Before my 2 friends were able to traverse, rock began to rain down again from above. These ranged in size from quarters to dinner plates. The rocks had them pinned down in the worst possible spot. They were unable to move due to their precarious position and the rocks raining down, all they could do was lean into the slope and hope their packs would protect them. It was horrible to watch. We and the group queued up behind us were screaming at the top our lungs to tell the guys above to stop moving until our friends were safely out of the way, but the rock just kept falling. It was ridiculous. The rock fell for what seemed an eternity but it was at least for 10 minutes. A rock the size of a baseball hit my friend square on the head. Luckily, he was shaken but okay. Finally, the rock fall stopped and they were able to get out of the way to a safer spot.

 

Please have consideration for the climbers below you. This dangerous situation could have been avoided if you simply were more careful and climber to the right out of the way where the trail was. I know it’s a loose slope and easy to knock stuff down but do your best not to. I was able to get up it without kicking off a single rock other than a little gravel sliding some. I’m an experienced rock climber and don’t expect everyone on rainier to have these skills but at least make the effort.

 

You are not the only one on the mountain. Rainier is not in some remote third world country. Its overcrowded and thus we must realize while climbing it that we must share. No one has more right to climb a route than any other. If a huge accident happens, this may cause severe restrictions on climbing. If you want to climb it without crowds there are a handful of routes during anytime of the year that you can have the whole climb to yourself. Go there if you are going to have no regard for others.

 

We have consideration for you, so please return the favor. Stop endangering other climbers as well as our privilege to climb there.

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There’s been a bunch of talk lately about, “Why are people getting toasted on the Emmons? Is it due to aluminum crampons?” Blah, blah, blah. There’s way too much pondering going on here, the fact is, people are getting hurt on the Emmons because they shouldn’t fucking be on the mountain because they have neither the skills nor the experience to be playing on a mountain as big as Rainier.

 

I climbed the Emmons Monday night with the crowds—bunch of fucking idiots up there! Jackoffs with crampons falling off multiple times; people up there without pickets or other anchoring devices; people trying to summit with humongous (heavy) packs; etc. Every time I’ve climbed Rainier what strikes me is that 90% of those climbing up there shouldn’t be. On Sunday returning climbers were telling stories of the “heinous ice” the last 1000 feet up the route; and how bad the bergschrund crossing was. WTF? By utilizing even the shittiest version of the French technique, the “heinous ice” would be all but a non-issue; and the shrund crossing was the best I’ve seen in years; fucking huge stair steps! Don’t get me wrong, no one is born with the requisite mountaineering skills, such must be gained through experience, but Mount Rainier is NOT the mountain on which to gain that experience. For fuck sake, there are people at camp who couldn’t even put on crampons, let alone set up an anchor and pull their mates out of a crevasse or arrest a fall.

 

When I climbed Monday, I passed multiple groups (actually every group--about 30 people--putting me at the head of the line). Most groups didn’t care that my team of two passed, but some did, muttering such comments as, “Those guys cut us off!” If I “cut you off,” it was because you were too fucking slow (probably due to trying to haul a 90 pound pack to the summit! One group who was angry that I “cut them off” was fucking taking a break! What?! Am I supposed to take a break with you?

 

I didn’t do any “high side” passing of people, but I can imagine a situation where I would. Imagine the steepest part of the Emmons (wherever that might be); if there’s some fucking group of Mounties or OSATs mucking up the works with a bunch of balanced challenged folks on a line, I much the fuck rather pass you high side rather than wait for you fuckers to slip and bring me down whilst passing down slope.

 

And to all you mother fuckers who stake tired/sick people to the route just so you can continue your summit attempt—FUCK YOU!

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And to all you mother fuckers who stake tired/sick people to the route just so you can continue your summit attempt—FUCK YOU!

 

yelrotflmao.gif I was on the DC yesterday, and didn't see anyone staked out, but I did see fresh puke right on the boot track. Gross. At least turn your head to the side please.

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Getting back to the original post and its intent, I agree with many of the points here about courtesy, safety, communication and common sense -- but wouldn't say that these principles are more important or relevant on Rainier than on many other peaks -- others than the way Rainier tends to draw lots of over-eager, under-prepared climbers or guided parties.

 

I have worked with large groups outdoors in various capacities, and find that the attitude or tone-setting done by the leader(s) can directly trickle down into the tone or attitude of the groups members, by the way...which is not to imply that its a guide's fault if his/her clients are rude.

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Don’t get me wrong, no one is born with the requisite mountaineering skills, such must be gained through experience, but Mount Rainier is NOT the mountain on which to gain that experience.

 

Really? So if the Emmons route on Rainier isn't a great place to build up experience on high glaciated terrain, then what is? Baker? Phhh... the thing only tops out at 10+k.

 

I'm not pissin' on your entire post - I actually agree with 99% of what you're saying. Gotta just shake your head when you're in camp at Schurman boiling water, looking at the people in the next tent over with FOH (the WHOLE friggin book!) trying to figure out crevasse rescue concepts. "Now WHERE do I put this prussik thingy again? And HOW do I get the pickets from you when you're in the crevasse?"

 

But you know what? You're on dog route #2... you better come expecting to deal with it. Granted... 100 people on the route seems insane, but everyone doesn't climb at the same level.

 

"Respect for others" means just that.

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in this mad-mad-free-fuck-beautiful-world we live in, if you do dog routes, you can't really bitch about being pissed on by dogs...doesn't seem to bother them either.

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I didn’t do any “high side” passing of people, but I can imagine a situation where I would. Imagine the steepest part of the Emmons (wherever that might be); if there’s some fucking group of Mounties or OSATs mucking up the works with a bunch of balanced challenged folks on a line, I much the fuck rather pass you high side rather than wait for you fuckers to slip and bring me down whilst passing down slope.

 

I can understand your frustration with less experienced parties, but by acting like a pretentious elitist you aren't helping things. You can always politely ask the party in front if they mind if you pass. The way you talk, you make it sound like you own the whole mountain. I bet even you were a pencil-necked newbie at some point.

 

Like knelson put it,

But you know what? You're on dog route #2... you better come expecting to deal with it. Granted... 100 people on the route seems insane, but everyone doesn't climb at the same level.

Everyone has to start from somewhere. Some choose to climb Rainier because it will be the biggest challange of their lives. Others climb it to train for bigger mountains. Some climb it to share a higher experience with their friends. Still others do it merely out of ego to impress others or get into someone else's pants. But hey, its your life and you can do whatever the fuck with it you want. I am just asking for you to mimimize fucking with mine in the process.

 

Remember, a rescue situation puts many others at risk. So do your homework and make an honest assessment of your skills and condition before you get on the mountain. And when you do get on it, continue to evaluate how you are doing, as well as your partners' condition. There is no shame in admitting that maybe you bit off more than you could chew. Its okay to turn around, no one is going to laugh at you. Most will actually respect you for having the balls to admit that you were beat. The summit isnt everything anyway. Some of the best lessons come from failure.

I'm convinced that one of the main reasons people die up there is related to hubris. snugtop.gif

Edited by SemoreJugs

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in this mad-mad-free-fuck-beautiful-world we live in, if you do dog routes, you can't really bitch about being pissed on by dogs...doesn't seem to bother them either.

 

exactly. go do a harder route if you don't want to deal with the unwashed masses.

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Don’t get me wrong, no one is born with the requisite mountaineering skills, such must be gained through experience, but Mount Rainier is NOT the mountain on which to gain that experience.

 

Really? So if the Emmons route on Rainier isn't a great place to build up experience on high glaciated terrain, then what is? Baker? Phhh... the thing only tops out at 10+k.

 

I just don’t think that a mountain as serious as Rainier should be the place, for example, where one is learning for the first time how to put on crampons. Halfway up the Interglacier isn’t the place to be showing your buddy what “self arresting” entails. Could Rainier be one’s first glacier climb? Well, if one has taken the time to practice self arresting; has been taught, and has practiced, how to use their equipment; has practiced crevasse rescue; etc., then sure, give ‘ol Rainier a shot, otherwise, stay the hell off the mountain.

 

I can understand your frustration with less experienced parties, but by acting like a pretentious elitist you aren't helping things. You can always politely ask the party in front if they mind if you pass. The way you talk, you make it sound like you own the whole mountain. I bet even you were a pencil-necked newbie at some point.

I’m not acting like a pretentious elitist--I’m merely pointing out the truth (and sometimes the truth can hurt). I can appreciate your desire to see people asking others politely if they can pass, but hey, this is Rainier, it ain’t some fucking tea party; it’s a fucking climb. I can understand where you’re coming from to an extent, but, frankly, I’m not asking politely or otherwise if I can pass because whatever the party’s answer, I’m passing. Sure, if it’s a particularly tenuous area, I might quickly coordinate my pass with the team ahead, but generally speaking, if you’re slower than the team behind, you should just expect to be passed—that’s just how it works.

 

And don’t get me wrong, I was without a doubt a pencil-necked newbie at one time; and I have no problem with newbies, but I do have a problem with Joe Blow newbie leader up on Rainier pretending he has the skills to lead a bunch of other newbies up a mountain where climbing ill prepared could have severe consequences (not only for themselves but for the rescuers who now have to put their lives in danger to save Mr. Ego Trip).

 

Everyone has to start from somewhere. Some choose to climb Rainier because it will be the biggest challange of their lives. Others climb it to train for bigger mountains. Some climb it to share a higher experience with their friends. Still others do it merely out of ego to impress others or get into someone else's pants. But hey, its your life and you can do whatever the fuck with it you want. I am just asking for you to mimimize fucking with mine in the process.

Ditto. I’ve been a member of Mountain Rescue for several years; climb Rainier for whatever reason you want, but don’t do so until you’re prepared because I don’t want to have to risk my neck for you unless it’s absolutely necessary. Going up there without the necessary skills is not only foolish and dangerous, it also selfish because guess who Mr. Ego’s calling as soon as he’s in over his head? Me!

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Comment for folks that don't like getting passed on the high side...

 

Take the high side yourself and leave the boot track for the passer.

 

If you're gonna get passed, you should be aware of it whether or not the party behind has said diddly to you. As the last person on the rope, communicate your intent with your team, step out of the boot track on the uphill side and continue on, slowing down if you need to. (Needless to say, passing should be done in a relatively safe spot.) While the party behind might not be overly thrilled at being on your downhill side, the fact that they keep the boot track always seems to soothe them. It also allows them to pass you quicker and you to keep moving.

 

As a team leader, you can even discuss this scenario with your rope mates before the climb, so the group is all on the same page.

 

If you're not comfortable outside the boot track, then you probably shouldn't even be there to start with.

 

-kurt

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At least one and maybe another rope team passed us by moving above us on the high side of the slope, even though there was ample room downslope to pass. I am always happy to let faster parties pass if there is a safe spot to stop, but jesus christ its a favor, so please dont endanger me and my friends by passing upslope of us. If you fall while next to us, you are going to come across our rope and likely take us down with you. Always pass another party by staying downslope if it is possible. If it is not possible, make sure the party you are passing is comfortable with you passing above.

 

A member of my team took a little slip and pulled me off my feet as well, around 11,500. We were able to self-arrest quickly but it really hit home that even on a “tame” route like the Emmons, shit can happen even on 20-30 degree slopes when its icy

 

If I saw your party falling on a 20-30 degree slope, you can be damn sure I'd be passing above you, not below you, too.

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Take the high side yourself and leave the boot track for the passer.

 

If you're gonna get passed, you should be aware of it whether or not the party behind has said diddly to you. As the last person on the rope, communicate your intent with your team, step out of the boot track on the uphill side and continue on, slowing down if you need to. (Needless to say, passing should be done in a relatively safe spot.) While the party behind might not be overly thrilled at being on your downhill side, the fact that they keep the boot track always seems to soothe them. It also allows them to pass you quicker and you to keep moving.

 

As a team leader, you can even discuss this scenario with your rope mates before the climb, so the group is all on the same page.

 

hey thats a great idea. My bad for overlooking such an obvious detail... except that is exactly what we did when given the chance. Anytime a party came up behind us, out last member did in fact try to communicate with the leader of the upcoming rope party. And we stepped aside uphill of the boot track everytime unless the boottrack was 20 feet wide which it was in some cases.

 

Most parties did pass low side and it was just these 2 jerk-offs that ignored our requests and put us in danger.

 

Addressing the other comment

from Dru:

If I saw your party falling on a 20-30 degree slope, you can be damn sure I'd be passing above you, not below you, too.

 

Yeah, I was pretty shocked myself that my ropemate fell. After the fall, I demanded to know why he fell. IT turned out he took a rest on his knees and did not plant his ice ax shaft up to the head to anchor. I nearly flipped that he and some others didn't have this basic skill down.

 

I made a hasty decision to join this team two days before hand, without actually meeting them. It was a risky decision on their part as well to accept me, but I guess the one person I knew "vouched" for my experience. It turned out they were much more inexperienced than I was led to believe. They were a great bunch of people but definitely green when it came to technical mountaineering. Not that the emmons is at all technical by most standards.

 

I was also shocked to see how many parties had difficulty crossing the bergschrund. This caused a terrible bottle-neck, especially when people started descending that way from the summit. People were knocking down dinner plates of ice and snow. Again, when we decended, we didnt knock off anything except little bits of ice that the rope got caught behind every now and then. I saw guys going up the stair-steps on their hands and knees! It took some guys over 10 minutes to move up the blasted thing. I was up the thing in less than 60 seconds, and maybe even faster. In retrospect, I should have blazed my own trail up further to the east. It would have been more fun too. That was definitely the most fun part of the climb.

 

I was NOT the leader of the group either. However, I'm glad I was there because I think they did not fully realize that you can die or get hurt even on a "Sidewalk" like emmons. I'm scared to think what could have happened if I wasnt there to talk sense into them (not that they listened too often) I'm not trying to slam them either. I made mistakes by trying to lead by voice rather than example.

 

Last year I climbed the Kautz in July and had a completely different experience. I climbed with 3 long-time climbing partners. There was NEVER any sketchy shit going down as far as I can remember. And this route was at least a magnitude higher in difficulty (but it still was never too tough except for the altitude of course).

I learned 2 lessons from climbing the Emmons.

 

1) Never rely on partners that you have no experience with, no matter what they say. TRust can only come from experiencing the actions of others.

 

2) Avoid crowded routes during peak seasons like the plague! This route was not my first choice but I was really itching to climb Rainier again soon and I found this group at the last minute. I will be more patient next time.

I wont be back on the Emmons in summer for sure, especially on a weekend! I prefer somewhat more technical routes like the Kautz, Lib Ridge, etc.

 

My intent in writing my original statement was simply to warn others contemplating this route about the mindset that exists up there. I heard about sketchy stuff second-hand, but had no idea how bad in reality it was.

Whatever happens on the Emmons will not directly effect me from now on unless a huge accident occurs which puts huge restrictions on climbing on the mountain.

Edited by SemoreJugs

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Here's how I try approaching trade routes and popular/busy climbs. First - if possible, avoid them on busy daze. Second - mentally prepare yourself for the "zoo". Third - if you don't feel that it is safe, leave; I have done this. Also, prepare mentally for this possibility. Fourth - try to enjoy the outing for what it is worth and try to make it enjoyable for all around you otherwise, it's hardly worth being there.

 

As far as idiots go, they're a fact of life. But, they are interesting in their own way and have their own stories as well, just don't let them get you hurt or killed. If they're open to suggestions, help them out. Otherwise, steer clear. Unfortunately, as you know, posting about them on this site is like preaching to the choir - it is a good place to vent though, I have to admit. Still, there will always be idiots out there.

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My intent in writing my original statement was simply to warn others contemplating this route about the mindset that exists up there. I heard about sketchy stuff second-hand, but had no idea how bad in reality it was.

 

Don't paint your ONE experience on the Emmons as the norm. It isn't. Yes... there are more inexperienced folks on this route than others. But the hoards and bottlenecks are not norm, from my experience on bluebird days. Sounds like you just got lucky, and found what you were looking for!

 

-kurt

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Its okay to turn around, no one is going to laugh at you. Most will actually respect you for having the balls to admit that you were beat. The summit isnt everything anyway.

 

What are you saying? What about all those questions at the trailhead? Geek_em8.gif

 

I'm on the summit now, can you believe? blush.gif

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Just a thought. Emmons is a huge glacier. Why do all these people climb in a single file, anyway? There are 20,000 potential ascent lines on the glacier. I think people there simply like to hang on to each other for safety. Ant effect!

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Just a thought. Emmons is a huge glacier. Why do all these people climb in a single file, anyway? There are 20,000 potential ascent lines on the glacier. I think people there simply like to hang on to each other for safety. Ant effect!

 

A FIRST ASCENT POSSIBILITY!!!!! OMG!

 

yellaf.gif This thread is hilarious! thumbs_up.gif

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There’s been a bunch of talk lately about, “Why are people getting toasted on the Emmons? Is it due to aluminum crampons?” Blah, blah, blah. There’s way too much pondering going on here, the fact is, people are getting hurt on the Emmons because they shouldn’t fucking be on the mountain because they have neither the skills nor the experience to be playing on a mountain as big as Rainier.

 

I climbed the Emmons Monday night with the crowds—bunch of fucking idiots up there! Jackoffs with crampons falling off multiple times; people up there without pickets or other anchoring devices; people trying to summit with humongous (heavy) packs; etc. Every time I’ve climbed Rainier what strikes me is that 90% of those climbing up there shouldn’t be. On Sunday returning climbers were telling stories of the “heinous ice” the last 1000 feet up the route; and how bad the bergschrund crossing was. WTF? By utilizing even the shittiest version of the French technique, the “heinous ice” would be all but a non-issue; and the shrund crossing was the best I’ve seen in years; fucking huge stair steps! Don’t get me wrong, no one is born with the requisite mountaineering skills, such must be gained through experience, but Mount Rainier is NOT the mountain on which to gain that experience. For fuck sake, there are people at camp who couldn’t even put on crampons, let alone set up an anchor and pull their mates out of a crevasse or arrest a fall.

 

When I climbed Monday, I passed multiple groups (actually every group--about 30 people--putting me at the head of the line). Most groups didn’t care that my team of two passed, but some did, muttering such comments as, “Those guys cut us off!” If I “cut you off,” it was because you were too fucking slow (probably due to trying to haul a 90 pound pack to the summit! One group who was angry that I “cut them off” was fucking taking a break! What?! Am I supposed to take a break with you?

 

I didn’t do any “high side” passing of people, but I can imagine a situation where I would. Imagine the steepest part of the Emmons (wherever that might be); if there’s some fucking group of Mounties or OSATs mucking up the works with a bunch of balanced challenged folks on a line, I much the fuck rather pass you high side rather than wait for you fuckers to slip and bring me down whilst passing down slope.

 

And to all you mother fuckers who stake tired/sick people to the route just so you can continue your summit attempt—FUCK YOU!

 

Well said, mate.

 

I would add, that if you don't like the crowds, then go climb on the west side, like The Tahoma Glacier.

 

Think out side the box and you might enjoy yourself, instead of whining about others mishaps.

 

Rock Guy is correct. Come to Rainier prepared. Do your apprenticeship on Adams and Hood, then come to Rainier.

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You have it backwards. If you are the slow party, you need to be aware of slowing the party behind you. Move your turtle butts over and let the faster crew pass. Ever play golf? The polite thing to do is to let the faster golfers play through. If you are playing slow , the marshall will get on your ass to speed up. Maybe they should have ranger marshalls to whip the slow asses to go faster. Slow = rude, if you don't move over. Fast = in shape, traveling light, etc.

 

Use common sense Jugs, and quit being a lolly gagger. You're too worried about posing with all your new ,, latest REI gear. Go light, and leave your FOH book on the shelf. yellaf.gif

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Bandit. Maybe you missed this the first time so I'll quote myself...

 

hey thats a great idea. My bad for overlooking such an obvious detail... except that is exactly what we did when given the chance. Anytime a party came up behind us, out last member did in fact try to communicate with the leader of the upcoming rope party. And we stepped aside uphill of the boot track everytime unless the boottrack was 20 feet wide which it was in some cases.

 

So WTF are you talking about? Read the whole thing before you try tearing me a new one moon.gif and talking about shiny REI gear. And sorry, I dont play golf.

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Like I said in my post. Quit lolly gagging and get the hell out of the way. High side, low side, who cares. Move your turtle ass over.

 

JONG's like you, put other people in danger. Stay in the indoor rock climbing gym and show off your plum smugglers to all the 16 yr girlies, girly man.

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