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barjor

RMI Accident

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scary stuff. I'll look for that when I am on the route in a few days.

 

I haven't climbed the DC or the ID yet so it will be good to do it, even if they are standard. I've already climbed the Gib ledges this winter and the Kautz...got blown off, but oh well.

 

STill wanting to do the Emmons. I just want to see schurman and the steamboat prow.

 

 

Any word on how the victims are doing?

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The instructor motioned to the people behind me to do a fall to see how I would react under a more realistic situation ( I didn;t know it was coming)Big difference when you don't know it is coming.

 

That is why I like to have the rope not taught when going uphill. I like that extra second to hear someone yell "falling" before I get yanked at the same time they yell "falling". See thread here:

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/s...true#Post332174

 

This is why the accident happened. Is because there was slack in the rope and the client built up speed. The conditions were really icy and the guide was putting in pro, when the client walked closer to him(to talk or something), putting slack in the rope and then fell, pulled another and then the guide. Apparently, there is still a long visible gouge in the snow where the guide tried to arrest the fall.

 

So you are saying the client was moving toward the guide? The guide saw the client moving toward him? If this is the case, and the guide saw the client moving him, then it would not matter if there was slack or no slack. The guide would be ripped off.

 

If the guide is leading a taught line and the client falls and the clients yells "falling", guess what? The guide is immediately ripped out of his position.

 

If the guide has a short amount of slack and client falls and the client yells "falling", guess what? The guide has a very short window to get into self arrest.

 

I guess your choice is to be immediately ripped out of position rather than have the opportunity for a short window. I do not take the same opinion on flat ground, or going downhill where the guide is in the rear position.

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I've stopped slides with slack and without, let me tell you, slack sucks! It is MANY times harder to stop a fall when the momentum has built up. It's all about momentum. Momentum=mass times velocity.

The mass is constant, but the velocity changes depending on the angle of the slope, but very fast. The more monetum that builds up, the more force it takes to stop the fall. SIMPLE.

However, if you are using a VERY long chunk of dynamic rope, the rope stretch could help you a bit.

 

Why do you think when guides are tested on their arresting skills they allow the guini pig to build up speed with slack in the rope? Because it's WAY harder to stop it!

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The instructor motioned to the people behind me to do a fall to see how I would react under a more realistic situation ( I didn;t know it was coming)Big difference when you don't know it is coming.

 

That is why I like to have the rope not taught when going uphill. I like that extra second to hear someone yell "falling" before I get yanked at the same time they yell "falling". See thread here:

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/s...true#Post332174

 

This is why the accident happened. Is because there was slack in the rope and the client built up speed. The conditions were really icy and the guide was putting in pro, when the client walked closer to him(to talk or something), putting slack in the rope and then fell, pulled another and then the guide. Apparently, there is still a long visible gouge in the snow where the guide tried to arrest the fall.

 

So you are saying the client was moving toward the guide? The guide saw the client moving toward him? If this is the case, and the guide saw the client moving him, then it would not matter if there was slack or no slack. The guide would be ripped off.

 

If the guide is leading a taught line and the client falls and the clients yells "falling", guess what? The guide is immediately ripped out of his position.

 

If the guide has a short amount of slack and client falls and the client yells "falling", guess what? The guide has a very short window to get into self arrest.

 

I guess your choice is to be immediately ripped out of position rather than have the opportunity for a short window. I do not take the same opinion on flat ground, or going downhill where the guide is in the rear position.

 

They were descending and the guide was on the uphill side.

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The instructor motioned to the people behind me to do a fall to see how I would react under a more realistic situation ( I didn;t know it was coming)Big difference when you don't know it is coming.

 

That is why I like to have the rope not taught when going uphill. I like that extra second to hear someone yell "falling" before I get yanked at the same time they yell "falling". See thread here:

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/s...true#Post332174

 

This is why the accident happened. Is because there was slack in the rope and the client built up speed. The conditions were really icy and the guide was putting in pro, when the client walked closer to him(to talk or something), putting slack in the rope and then fell, pulled another and then the guide. Apparently, there is still a long visible gouge in the snow where the guide tried to arrest the fall.

 

So you are saying the client was moving toward the guide? The guide saw the client moving toward him? If this is the case, and the guide saw the client moving him, then it would not matter if there was slack or no slack. The guide would be ripped off.

 

If the guide is leading a taught line and the client falls and the clients yells "falling", guess what? The guide is immediately ripped out of his position.

 

If the guide has a short amount of slack and client falls and the client yells "falling", guess what? The guide has a very short window to get into self arrest.

 

I guess your choice is to be immediately ripped out of position rather than have the opportunity for a short window. I do not take the same opinion on flat ground, or going downhill where the guide is in the rear position.

 

They were descending and the guide was on the uphill side.

 

I did not know that fact. Thank you for pointing it out. I do not believe in slack on the downhill.

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Slack is almost always bad when you are belaying someone below you, especially on steep angles when , whether your anchor is stationary (a picket) or moving (a climber). Almost right, f=m*a (mass x acceleration) equals force. The longer you fall, the higher the acceleration. The higher the acceleration, the higher the force. momentum equals mass * velocity (p=m*v) . Simple physics.

 

However, a dynamic belay is better than a static belay. Letting rope slip, as in a boot-axe or body belay, distributes the force (or the impulse) over a longer period of time. therefore, the anchor sees a lower maximum force. impulse (Ft)=mass* final velocity - mass * initial velocity. Impulse is the change in the momentum of a body (or falling climber) caused over a very short time. J = F delta t = delta p . delta means change in.

 

Just trying to break down the arguments into their component parts using physics.

 

Of course there are a few more variables to consider. Like is the belayer's self arrest able to withstand a greater force than a boot axe belay? Likely not. considering he is also trying to stop the forces his body is generating if he is moving. So maybe a little bit of slack is good to allow ... I dont have time to go into it. so if some engineer or physicist would like to take up the gauntlet, please educate!

 

Thanks Issac Newton!

Edited by SemoreJugs

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Almost right, f=m*a (mass x acceleration) equals force. The longer you fall, the higher the acceleration. The higher the acceleration, the higher the force. momentum equals mass * velocity (p=m*v) . Simple physics.

 

Oh dear. Simple, yes, but wrong and misapplied. I just love it when the equations come out...

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Almost right, f=m*a (mass x acceleration) equals force. The longer you fall, the higher the acceleration. The higher the acceleration, the higher the force. momentum equals mass * velocity (p=m*v) . Simple physics.

 

Oh dear. Simple, yes, but wrong and misapplied. I just love it when the equations come out...

 

Maybe you would like to back up your statement with some logic on why it is wrong or misapplied... Prove me wrong and I will happily reevaluate my ideas. Thanks. boxing_smiley.gif

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Almost right, f=m*a (mass x acceleration) equals force. The longer you fall, the higher the acceleration. The higher the acceleration, the higher the force. momentum equals mass * velocity (p=m*v) . Simple physics.

 

Oh dear. Simple, yes, but wrong and misapplied. I just love it when the equations come out...

 

Maybe you would like to back up your statement with some logic on why it is wrong or misapplied... Prove me wrong and I will happily reevaluate my ideas. Thanks. boxing_smiley.gif

 

Acceleration is a constant, assuming constant slope. Velocity increases.

 

I'll let gslater have fun with the rest.

 

-kurt

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Almost right, f=m*a (mass x acceleration) equals force. The longer you fall, the higher the acceleration. The higher the acceleration, the higher the force. momentum equals mass * velocity (p=m*v) . Simple physics.

 

Oh dear. Simple, yes, but wrong and misapplied. I just love it when the equations come out...

 

Maybe you would like to back up your statement with some logic on why it is wrong or misapplied... Prove me wrong and I will happily reevaluate my ideas. Thanks. boxing_smiley.gif

 

Acceleration is a constant, assuming constant slope. Velocity increases.

 

I'll let gslater have fun with the rest.

 

-kurt

 

Thanks, Kurt. I'm too lazy to go into the rest of it. yellowsleep.gif

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