Gary_Yngve Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Smoot describes it scornfully as being bolted for convenience. But when I rapped down from George and Martha, I didn't see any bolts or any obvious scars (but I wasn't looking too hard). Anyone know the history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 It was chopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyselinck Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 The holes are there if you look hard close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 It was chopped cuz the bolts should not be there, it is a trad lead. A hard trad lead at that...one that I think received 3 repeats before the bolts were stupidly added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_detrick Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 I agree, say what you want about vantage, but at least there are no bolted cracks, and it should stay that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_detrick Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Sorry Gary thats not what you asked. I will tell you what little I know. Bolts show up a few years back, with from what I heard was the frist ascent permission. Lots of talk on here and other places and than they were chopped, they did a good job and most people are happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janez_Ales Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Climbed Red M&M's after the bolts were choped without knowing the story. The stud holes induced an unnecessary thought when I discovered one - got seriously distracted while placing the 20th or so RP It is a great trad lead and am glad that it will stay that way. I guess these things should get discussed before drilling starts whatever the outcome is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 I flailed my way up Red M&Ms today on TR and noticed the bolt holes. Weird how Smoot rates the bolted climb 11b but Yoder the exbolted climb 12a? Is that just from the gear placing being factored in? I thought that technical rating wasn't supposed to account for gear placement or pucker factor or risk of injury? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 The book says something like "11b with bolts, 12a without" doesn't it? Obviously, in that book, they very straightforwardly account for gear placement and pucker factor in their ratings. Does that go against your ethical standards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Smoot flat-out says 11b. I don't have the new Yoder guide, but I think it says 12a. It seems really inconsistent if neither are qualified with the clause you suggest. Personally, all I really care about a route is if I can rate it by: - I think can lead it easily. - I think can lead it without hurting myself. - I don't think I can lead it safely. - I think can TR it easily. - I think can hangdog my way up it. - Upward progress appears futile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mos_Chillin Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Personally, all I really care about a route is if I can rate it by: - I think can lead it easily. - I think can lead it without hurting myself. - I don't think I can lead it safely. - I think can TR it easily. - I think can hangdog my way up it. - Upward progress appears futile. Pearls of wisdom, our new GY rating system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I could see where this climb would be a couple of grades harder as a trad lead because the gear would be in the way of your feet and sometimes your hands, there are not a lot of good placements that I noticed although there are some good stances to place gear lower down. I think I'll stick to leading G & M and TRing Red M&M's. I think 11b is a fair grade if you compare it to other climbs on M&M Wall but 11c or 11d compared to most of Vantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 If I recall correctly, it felt like 11c to me as a trad lead. I suppose it would feel easier if there were bolts to clip (thankfully it was chopped), although all the placement stances were pretty secure and comfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_m Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Led it last spring after one TR run. Grade definitely jumps when wiggling in the small gear every few feet (looks like an aid climb when you're done!) As much as I'd like to say it's 12a on lead I don't think it is. Compare it to Japanese Gardens full P1 (11d!) and they're not the same. There's a definite pump and pucker factor on it though (especially right near the top - hard gear to find and place) So... Easier than J Gardens (but I've heard people call that yosemite 12a) and even easier on TR - just like anything else... Great climb though! Side note: I got on Lingerie on the Mid East Wall and thought that would be a harder lead (I TR'd) because the start is VERY THIN with less places to stem - above it gets easier with better pro but pumpy nonetheless. Recommended (and Jihad! Awesome lead too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCash Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I got on Lingerie on the Mid East Wall and thought that would be a harder lead (I TR'd) because the start is VERY THIN with less places to stem - above it gets easier with better pro but pumpy nonetheless. Recommended (and Jihad! Awesome lead too) Both are awesome routes! I have only followed them, must get stronger. The start to Lingerie is not that bad if you sidepull to the left and backstep off of the Sex Party crack. Definately not 11D if you cheat like that as even my weak ass can get up it. 10D if you stem the whole thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Martin you forgot that everything is "in" when climbing outdoors. Sheesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JensHolsten Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 To clear up a little confusion on the never ending Red M& M's grade debate, take a look at climbingwashington.com. Smoot lists his 11b rating as a misprint and gives the route 12a. Do I think the route is 12a? It definetely feels light, although I would give it 11+ while onsighting. I feel that the full Japanese Gardens pitch is less difficult and Red M&M's is definetely the harder lead. The bottom line is who gives a fuck. I think Red M&M's is a beautiful climb especially when it catches evening light. I find it odd that so many people bash Vantage as an area. Like every crag, there are shitty routes and a handful of really good routes (many of which I have never seen anyone on). Hell, most of my own freinds would rather pull plastic then climb out there. Not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I find it odd that so many people bash Vantage as an area Yeah, compared to a slate quarry in Wales, the Fisher Towers, or a yellow limestone band in the Bow Valley, the rock isn't that much worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 clean granite is for fags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC007 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 well the story I know about Red M & Ms is this, the bolter got permission for the FA permission, but someone who was planning of leading it on gear didnt want to be tempted by the bolts.. Doesnt matter but just sharing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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