n00b Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 My buddies and I are planning on doing the Kautz glacier route later this spring and it looks like it will be a team of three or four. I have never placed running pro with a team of more than two. Is there a favored or correct method for the middle man to clip past the anchor? I can think of two obvious choices, one being to use three 'biners on the anchor and clip one behind befor unclipping the first one. The second is the sketchy, unclip the 'biner and reclip it behind you. It is probably not that bad, but I think I like the three 'biner solution better. I expect that there is some slick trick that everyone else already knows, but I can't find it in FOTH or with google. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 I have always clipped past with one biner as you described. There is a way to twist the rope as you are unclipping that will clip the rear part of the rope in as you go by. It would be near impossible to describe without showing you. Â One way to reduce the sketch factor is to have 2 pieces clipped into the rope at any one time. That means more pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 No, it's not that bad/dangerous for a middle-man (or middle-men) to clip through an intermediate piece. It's more a pain in the arse than dangerous. If you're really slow, yes there is a moment spent unprotected as a middle-man by that piece. But there should be other pieces in anyway (if allowable). And if it's so steep that fall potential is increased then maybe that terrain should be belayed from a standard anchor anyway. Albeit, this is not always practical. Â And yes, there is a slick way to clip through quickly almost without breaking stride. It takes a few times to figure out. Easier shown than described in words but... Â It involves taking up both the trailing strand (the one going to the end/last-man) and the leading strand (the one going to the leader/man-ahead) in one hand at where the strands leave the area of your gear loop (i.e., right in front of you where they are knotted into your harness). With both strands in your palm, the idea is to bend at the wrist so as to create a bend in the lead strand while the trailing strand stays straight as they leave your fingertips. Then, simply clip both strands through the piece's biner simultaneously. The lead strand will form a small bite once through the gate and pull out of the biner. The trailing strand will then simply be running through the biner after it gets clipped through the gate. I'm sure there's a diagram out there somewhere. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Thanks guys. I think that I have the visual on the method you described klenke. That makes good sense. Â We may have more than one peice at some times, but I expect that there will be times when we only have one. I don't expect it to get to the point where we would need to pitch it out. If so we need to do another route to get more comfortable because that would be really slow and that would be more dangerous than clipping past the pro ever would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted April 13, 2005 Share Posted April 13, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Who needs pro? Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Cool photo, but I call BS - the thread and the question as I interpret it has to do with a running belay (simul-climbing) situation, and the photo you sent (though excitingly run-out) seems to be a belayed pitch, with a potentially different set of results should one of the followers fall . . . . am I accurate about that? Â Where is the photo taken??? Looks magnificent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 True. When the photo was taken the followers were on belay. However, before I built the belay (consisting of both of my ice tools and stubby)we had been simul-climbing like that with a screw in between us for 20 or 30 meters. Â Very stupid. That was my first climb in Alaksa and I underestimated the sustained nature and scale of shit there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Yeah, I did some similar "run out" simulclimbing on Triple Couloirs for awhile before establish a good belay (piton, Camalot, and ice tool all equalized with a cordellette.) Â I was "vibracious" during the simulclimbing but felt very happy with the integrity of the anchor itself, once I got there. Â Exciting stuff -- not ideal, but hey, you do the best you can in the situation that you're in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 Should have built a belay earlier on steep ice while I still had screws instead of looking of a ledge and continuing to climb then building a belay with ice tools on steep ice anyway. Well, live and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible_ted Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 FWIW, I'll bet if you contacted a dozen ice tool manufacturers and a dozen rescue organizations you'd get two dozen recommendations not to use your tools for anchors. Â -t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 FWIW I bet if you ran out of ice pro you'd build a belay out of tools too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible_ted Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 SMR plucked a pair of bodies out of the Triple Couloirs route a few years back. The cause was determined to be a follower fall followed by the leader's ice tool anchor belay failure. I find that images like that are a nice way to help remember to save your last screws for an anchor. Using them to back up a screw is a different matter, although it's probably unlikely to have anything other than psychological value... Â -t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 For every example there is a counter example... several years ago in the Rockies two hardmen were climbing Grand Central Couloir, the leader fell off the crux, stripped his gear and Factor-2ed on the anchor... both shitty screws pulled out of the belay as did one of the belayers two tools, the other tool held both climbers. After resetablishing the belay they finished the route. You can read the account in the CAJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 I thought that was just an example of stupid canadians falling off 5.9 routes  grand cours, petit cerveau hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Black Diamond did a very subjective test a few years ago that concluded pretty positively that ice axes and ice hooks failed each and every time on dynamic falls. I think I would use the one-screw-both-tools anchor only for belaying the second up, and then sink another screw in for leading the next pitch. How about saving one screw for a V-thread anchor instead? Especially if the descent is to rap the route. Even if its not, you could build a V-thread anchor in 5 minutes if you had planned in advance, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackalicious Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Word. The three biner method is better from a safety standpoint, and the extra biners you will use won't add enough weight to slow you down. Make sure to use good communication between climbers. Have fun!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 FWIW, I'll bet if you contacted a dozen ice tool manufacturers and a dozen rescue organizations you'd get two dozen recommendations not to use your tools for anchors.  -t  Thanks for the heads up. Sounds like you've got some outdoor retail experience or maybe completed a NOLSE course or two. What windshirt do you think is best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 FWIW: DAMN fukin research studies on ICE is a bunch of hand waving to get you to buy more gear. whatever it takes to build a belay and get to the ground safely again is what it takes... Gosh I wish ice tools were still designed like hummingbirds, then less people would be out there trying to kill themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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