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David Trippett

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European Death Knot... aka the overhand. Leave 12 to 15 inches of tail and cinch it down tight! Don't use this knot if you have more than 2.5 mm difference between rope diameters or the ropes are icy. Also don't tie an overhand knot in the tails. Doing so negates the benefit of the knot to begin with. This is a scary looking knot (hence the tongue in cheek name). However under the low load situations in rappelling it is more than adequately strong. I believe this is the knot currently suggested by the AMGA.

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The "American Death Knot" is a true death knot. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

 

So, Mike, tell us more about that bootied 60 m rope. Are you saying their backup knot caught in a crack or something? You know for sure that it would not have caught had it not been for the backup knot?

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The American Death Knot is another option - A figure eight knot tied with both ropes. Leave a long tail with this one as well.

 

2nd the statement that the ADK IS actually a death knot. Rock and Ice and several other sources have stated and it's been tested that the ADK is EXTREMELY dangerous - when loaded the knot rolls on itself but doesn't cinch down nearly as well as the EDK. I think there was a rap accident in AINAM where this happened. Stay away from the ADK.

 

That said - I usually use the EDK with 12in or so tails and tighten the hell out of it before rapping. Weird ropes or long, smooth raps (eg Royal arches) I'll use the double fish but most other places like Ref Rocks - EDK well cleaned and pre tightened is the way to go.

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tell us more about that bootied 60 m rope.

 

Alpinedave and I each scored a 60m in thanks to a EDK caught in a rope groove typical of many sandstone rap stations. Knot was face down and the fist of rope caught on the edge.

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The "American Death Knot" is a true death knot. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

 

So, Mike, tell us more about that bootied 60 m rope. Are you saying their backup knot caught in a crack or something? You know for sure that it would not have caught had it not been for the backup knot?

 

Well, I haven't died yet, but I will stop using it. To tell the truth, I hadn't even noticed the knot roll in the manner described.

 

EDK All the way!

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Here's a very good link to testing of the EDK:

 

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

 

Also, note the links in the "Further Reading and Test Data on flat-knots" section, good test links there. Edelrid tested multiple flat knots but the interesting one in their link is the "flat" double fish. Hard to explain, but makes sense when you see it.

 

FWIW, I use an EDK 95% of the time (had some Korean partners in the valley who insisted on flemish bend and refused to rap on the edk I'd tied).

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That flat double fisherman knot is a new one on me. I tied it and I don't see any reason why it would not work. I appears that, like the EDK, it needs to be carefully cinched. It will not self-tighten in the same way the conventional double fisherman will. The knot would have the same ability as the EDK to rotate away from edges. I'd prefer to see actual test data before using it to rappel though.

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why dont you use a butterfly? that knot seems designed for the type of tension.

 

As for that testing page, I don't understand test 12, why would you be using a figure 8 on webbing? I always use a waterknot follow thru, and can't think of a situation that you would want to use a figure 8, can anyone think of any?

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why dont you use a butterfly? that knot seems designed for the type of tension.
A butterfly knot is used on the bight. It is not used to join two ropes, although in theory, it could. I suspect that it is prone to slipping if tension is repetitively applied and released. On the bight, it's no big deal if it slips (one use of the butterfly is to isolate damaged sections of rope).

 

A butterfly would go over edges better than a standard double fisherman but not as well as an EDK or a flat double fisherman. Try it.

Edited by catbirdseat
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Look, just tie the f'ing EDK and be done with it. It is widely-used, time-tested, and lab-approved for recreational rappeling. It is used thousands of times every year with no incidents. It is approved by the AMGA for guiding purposes.

 

Or alternatively, use the time-tested double-fish if for some reason you don't believe what reality tells you, that's fine too.

 

Learn the core set of knots and get really good with them. Don't mess around with a million options. There's no point to it. Just choose and be done with it. You'll live.

 

I'm sure this topic will come up again.

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