Climbing Fee Resistance Strategy?

[DoIGottaHaveAName?]

I've been skipping the summit registrations, trail fees, sno-park permits, climbing permits, volcano passes, and god knows what else they will come up with next - maybe a luxury tax on full length sleeping pads, since the fees were first introduced. I haven't been confronted yet, but I wonder what happens when/if I do?

Ever been caught on a peak without a permit?

How did you get out of it?

If asked to leave or descend, what did you do appease the ranger, while still bagging that summit?

What is the protocol that the NPS, NFS employees are trained to use when confronting unregistered climbers/hikers/people-on-a-day-hike-above-the-tree-line?

[Gerg]

I've found that having a twist tie on my pack(like the one used to attatch volcano passes) or some elastic off of an old climbing permit works. Just tell them it must have torn off sometime earlier and you didn't realize it. This seems to work pretty well most, but not all, of the time.

gev

 

[AllYouCanEat]

I believe once the NPS catches you, you are put on a black-list. I have been caught a few times and during those times I was sent down the mountain. Oh, they can also give you a ticket. Ha, you want to know my strategy, stay off the main routes. Climb where there are no people and tread lightly and fast and take resposibility for getting hurt and be prepared if you get lost. In other words, don't expect a heli or a rescue team.

[jblakley]

Just curious. Exactly what fees are we talking about? The fifteen bucks for Rainier for instance? I would be interested in knowing where EXACTLY this money is going. If it's going at least partly to fund rescues then I don't have a huge problem with it. If it's going to campaign funds for instance, I do have a problem with it. Also if we as climbers start battling this by just not paying for it and then getting caught we are going to do more harm for our cause than good.

Jim

[DoIGottaHaveAName?]

See bottom for the original quote.

Now we are getting closer to what I'd like to hear about. So you have been sent down the mountain. By who, and what coercion forced you down? What was said that made you leave? Couldn't you just ignore the person and kept walking uphill?

quote:

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Originally posted by AllYouCanEat:

I believe once the NPS catches you, you are put on a black-list. I have been caught a few times and during those times I was sent down the mountain. Oh, they can also give you a ticket. Ha, you want to know my strategy, stay off the main routes. Climb where there are no people and tread lightly and fast and take resposibility for getting hurt and be prepared if you get lost. In other words, don't expect a heli or a rescue team.

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[DoIGottaHaveAName?]

quote:

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Originally posted by jblakley:

Just curious. Exactly what fees are we talking about? The fifteen bucks for Rainier for instance? I would be interested in knowing where EXACTLY this money is going. If it's going at least partly to fund rescues then I don't have a huge problem with it. If it's going to campaign funds for instance, I do have a problem with it. Also if we as climbers start battling this by just not paying for it and then getting caught we are going to do more harm for our cause than good.

Jim

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[DoIGottaHaveAName?]

Jim,

You've brought up a good point, but not one I'd like to address in this thread. I'm only interested in what NPS/NFS employees are doing to discourage and turn around people without permits. And why those people felt compelled to descend.

Start a new thread on on the legitimacy or validity of climbing fees and I'll address it.

In short, I already gave on April 15th. Why do I have to give again? They are federal agencies after all...

quote:

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Originally posted by jblakley:

Just curious. Exactly what fees are we talking about? The fifteen bucks for Rainier for instance? I would be interested in knowing where EXACTLY this money is going. If it's going at least partly to fund rescues then I don't have a huge problem with it. If it's going to campaign funds for instance, I do have a problem with it. Also if we as climbers start battling this by just not paying for it and then getting caught we are going to do more harm for our cause than good.

Jim

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[mikeadam]

Nick A. and I were caught descending from Colchuck in 99 without an overnight permit to camp at the lake. The ranger had been up there while we were climbing and took note of my tent (stupid on our part). Later on the trail just below the lake we met the ranger on the trail who was very friendly and made an effort to educate us.

She asked for my ID, but I told her I didn't have it on me at the time. She let us go and I assumed that was the end of the story. We hiked out, but as we emerged at the trailhead we were greeted by both a ranger AND a sheriff. We had no real choice, but to cough up some ID's which the sheriff used to run criminal background checks on both of us. The ranger then handed us a $100.00 fine which we paid via mail.

Friends of mine have had similar experiences in recent years in that area which is becoming highly regulated.

I'm not sure about any blacklisting...

Incidentally I'm not sure when they finally opened all of the fee sites in the Icicle, but as of Monday they were all manned by campground hosts and charging fees again.

Mike

[This message has been edited by mikeadam (edited 04-19-2001).]

[W]

The climbing fee at Rainier is specifically kept in Mt. Rainier National Park. The money goes towards staffing Camp Muir and Camp Schurman with climbing rangers(who perform rescues...), additionally towards staffing the information desks at Paradise and White River with climbing rangers to register climbers and provide orientation and safety info. The money also pays entirely for the production of the blue bags which are used for taking a crap on route and bringing it back to high camp, and the money also goes directly for the cost of helicopter flights to remove the shit barrels located at camp muir, hazard, and schurman. The money also went directly to pay for the cost of new solar toilets at camp schurman (1996) and muir (1998 and 2000).

Climbing rangers patrol the routes frequently (not just the regular routes) and provide for resource protection on the fragile treeline slopes where many people camp on the vegetation.

Few if any of the climbing rangers are commissioned law enforcement, so, technically, you can not get a ticket. On the other hand, there have been a few in the past who were commissioned (the NPS is moving this way unfortunately) and getting a ticket is a possibility. Also, technically, the noncommissioned ranger could get a description/info/whatever and ensure that you do get a ticket upon your return to the parking lot. But most of the time this is not a problem unless the person involved is openly being defiant.

The problem is that the park service is underfunded by the federal government, and the resulting bureaucracy has moved to having climbers pay. I don't like climbing fees anymore than anyone else, but under the circumstances, at least the money is going into keeping the mountain clean and providing professional, acclimatized climber/rescuers on call at camp for both rescue and for general information and assistance. While paying to climb is unfortunate, and something needs to be done, until the federal government decides that the parks are important, the way I see it, if you are going to climb a magnificent mountain that saw 12,000 people attempt it last year, having paid thousands for your climbing gear, you can dig out $15 to have your crap removed from the mountain. Asking climbers to do it themselves is impractical and, face it, wouldn't happen.

The camps are far cleaner than they were 10 years ago, and so are the routes. The NPS SAR team has performed many dangerous rescues and saved a lot of climbers, many of them highly experienced.

Dissing the climbing rangers to protest the fee is a poor method, as the climbing rangers are about the least "NPS" of any rangers you will meet. They are your peers.

You don't have to agree with the fees but there are plenty of channels to voice your complaints with the NPS. Openly flogging the rules will only perhaps get you fine in addition to compromising the climbing rangers desire to work with the climbing public rather than against it.

In case you're wondering, the money you pay at the booth goes to the US government general fund and then is redistributed to the parks as the feds see fit. On average, Rainier receives about 3% of its gate take on which to operate a budget. Not enough. Use your pens and your voice and don't take it out on the wrong people.

 

[jblakley]

Thanks for breaking that down W. You pretty much mirrored my own opinions on this issue.

[W]

by the way, "doigottahaveaname"- to answer your question, when the Rainier climbing rangers meet someone on the mountain who has no permit, most of the time the ranger will register the climber by radio, and the climber(s) is requested to pay the fee upon their return to the parking lot. The higher ups in the park service frown upon this practice, but often there is the person camping at Muir and it's 9 pm and they claim to have "not known" about the fee. Making them leave of course isn't really an option. In any case, the upper mountain rangers will also go to great lengths to explain the permit/fee process and the benefits of the fees going directly to the Rainier climbing program, as well as encouraging those who disagree to write a complaint to the NPS. Most people, surprisingly, seem to find the fee process agreeable considering where the money goes.

So, there IS a way to cooperate that is not merely capitulation. Being a mask-wearing rogue won't help the situation at all.

[icemancometh]

>In case you're wondering, the money you pay at the booth goes to the US government general fund and then is redistributed to the parks as the feds see fit. On average, Rainier receives about 3% of its gate take on which to operate a budget.<

Good points. Your info regarding gate money is not exactly true. Mount Rainier is part of the NPS fee demonstration project. Aproximatly 80% of the fees collected at the gate stays in the park and becomes part of the Park's FY operating budget. The remaining 20% is kicked back to the fed to be distributed. Fee demo parks are, within reason, able to charge what they would like as an enterance fee.

Also of interest to this group: From this 20% collected from all the parks involved in the project, former NPS Superintendant Stanton developed the Public Land Corps Initiative (2.6 million). This pool of money is availiable to any unit within the system through a granting process(including NPS historic sites, monuments etc.) to complete backlogged trail maintence projects. This money can only be utilized in conjunction with youth conservation corps and is designed to blend the concepts of parks, youth, service, etc. Some of the smiling kids working on completing the last mile of the wonderland trail last year (for example) were the direct result of PLC funding. There will be several youth organizations doing this type of work in the park this year and will be funded through the PLC. If you see them give them a pat on the back for the good work that they do!

 

[Paul_Warner]

As far as NPS fees go, I pay it and don't bitch. But the general "fee demo program" has gotten outta control. It seems like I get nickle-and-dimed to death. The BLM, Fish and Wildlife, and Forest Service are all jumping on the money train generated from the surge in yuppie outdoor recreation. I'm a poor grad student, and don't have the $100 disposable income to go hiking in the Blue Mountains, park at Vantage, Sawtooths, every other national/state area. What gives??

Case in point: last weekend, the F & W showed up at Vantage, and started handing out $75 tickets to unregistered vehicles. They made a killing. If I KNOW the money is directly going back into trail maintainence, etc., I'm cool with it, but isn't a large proportion of the funds generated going into enforcement? It just seems crazy........

[DoIGottaHaveAName?]

Backlogged trail maintenance...

If Congress hadn't cut their budgets, the backlog wouldn't exist. And there wouldn't be a need for for Stanton's initiative.

quote:

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Originally posted by icemancometh:

>Also of interest to this group: From this 20% collected from all the parks involved in the project, former NPS Superintendant Stanton developed the Public Land Corps Initiative (2.6 million). This pool of money is availiable to any unit within the system through a granting process(including NPS historic sites, monuments etc.) to complete backlogged trail maintence projects.

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[W]

iceman,

thanks, i stand corrected. I had heard the 3% figure from several sources but they were as it was unconfirmed.

nonetheless, the parks are clearly underfunded. and nps bureaucracy then got the great idea to charge visitors if congress won't provide the funding. the real trouble is, that as fees continue to be implemented as "demonstration" fees (meaning in fact in the case of the trail park pass you aren't really required to pay) people pay them thinking they are required and then the governing agency counts that permit purchase as a vote "in favor" of the fee. sneaky, huh? It doesn't quite work that way at rainier, but the problem is still that we are being increasingly seen as a commodity, particularly by the USFS. The USFS is starting to be run like a private business instead of a public trust.

So if we want to show opposition to fees, we need to go right to the source, which is our elected congressional representatives, who have indicated that they would prefer the public pay to use public lands, pay for their own rescues, and pay for the upkeep and stewardship of these lands with additional fees on top of our tax dollars.

Start writing the people involved. However, until we get someone in the whitehouse with a brain, don't be surprised if nothing happens for awhile. The people to consider very dangerous (for more reasons than user fees) are particularly Frank Murkowski, Gale Norton, and Dick Cheney.

 

[Alpine_Tom]

Hard at work today, I saw the post on the missing climbers on Mt. Baker, and followed it back to http://www.nps.gov/morningreport.

The next one (http://www.nps.gov/morningreport/msg00829.html) includes an account of a rescue of "canyoneers" down in Zion NP.

My point (winding circuitously around to it) is: do they charge these canyoneers, to offset the cost of rescues? It seems to me that canyoneering is at least potentially a lot more dangerous than slogging up the Emmonds glacier.

[vegetablebelay]

I think you'd have to admit that it costs more to send people up a mountain to rescue someone than it does to wait at the bottom of a river with a big fishing net!

Vegetablebelay

[DPS]

veggiebelay,

You are wrong. The most expensive rescue in DNP was for a missing hiker. She was found drowned in the river. That one search and rescue mission cost more than all of the mountain rescues that season combined.

[jon]

In a rescue there is what they "say" it costs and how much it "actually" costs. SAR groups charge the state something like $50/manhour. The reality is though that in mountain rescue situations most people are volunteers so the actually costs are quite low until you get a helicopter in the air, and then the jet fuel alone outways all other costs.

[vegetablebelay]

DPS,

Didn't you see my winky guy?

The thread discussing rescue costs is called, "Access Fund Vertical Times Denali".

I know they don't use big fishing nets at the bottom of a river to rescue canyoneers. It must be something closer to big fishing poles with big treble hooks.

Your point is well taken though.

Vegetablebelay

 

[jblakley]

Another tidbit of information to add to the fray. A buddy of mine is in Seattle Mountain Rescue and he recently told me that if a Military MAST chopper is called in to pluck somebody off a peak, it is written off as a training exercise. The dollars are already there and are spent whether it's a training mission or an actual rescue. It torks me off that the media plays off climbers as foolhardy and expensive to the taxpayers.

Jim

[geordie]

DoIgottahaveaame-

You can "get out of" a ticket by appearing in front of a Federal Magistrate in Federal Court. Me, I'd rather be spending my time climbing.

If you've really got a beef, run for congress.

g

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

Hey Geordie wassup?!

How was the road trip? Drop me a line and we'll go out to Castle Rock again.