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Anna

I've been humbled

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[Mad][Mad] You know, it just angers me on how blatently stupid you were for heading up on that climb. Reading your last entry spells out so many no-brainer hints that you were not prepared at all for climbing. HUMBLED is not the word to use here.

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I agree with the suggestions made above that climbers who are moving from the gym into "trad" climbing should be encouraged to learn to lead on easy climbs but I disagree with SayJay's suggestion that this should be a focal issue in trying to encourage climbers to make that transition safely. I say this for two reasons. First, from what I've seen of beginning leaders, they rarely if ever fall when faced with a difficult move that is near their limit but much more often fall when they pull off a loose rock or slip on a grassy ledge or otherwise fall when they were not expecting to. Yes, there are those who are willing to throw theirselves at hard climbing before they know how to protect it properly, but most new leaders will back down before they reach anything near their technical ability. Second, I think there are all kinds of skills needed to lead a trad climb safely, and these include learning to place gear but they also include a lot more than that. Routefinding and being able to assess where in the terrain ahead they will be able to stop and place pro or set a belay, anticipating rope drag and compensating for it, setting up a retreat, rapelling where there may be loose rocks or flakes ready to snag the rope when you pull it...

 

Coming from the gym, trad climbing is a whole new sport and I think Forrest stated this quite well. Hone your gear placement skills on easy climbs -- or even on the ground -- but I think you will learn a lot more about gear placement by doing as Kurt suggested and climbing A-1 cracks. Most of that other stuff that you have to learn in order to be a competent trad leader can only be learned by doing lots of climbing, on climbs that are generally more complex and demanding than most of the 5.2's that I can think of.

 

And sorry, safety folks, but I disagree with the idea that climbing skills can always be learned in a safe setting or that we can improve incrementally without sometimes throwing ourselves at something that may be over our head. I'm probably arguing this point only because I misunderstood what was said, however. Just ask Mitch.

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Start slowly, on bolted stuff. Take it easy, and don't get on anything long, committing, or runout. And when you do get back to trad, go REAL SLOW, and practice on easy, sewn-up climbs. You were lucky, but you're fine, so don't dwell on what could have happened. Live and learn, but don't obsess.

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quote:

Originally posted by Anna:

Shame on you Greg
[big Grin][big Grin]

 

I have taken all these suggestions and I think doing lots and lots of sport leads (well when I feel comfortable leading again) is what my next step is going to be. Thanks to all of you! Now I just need to get some time off work and school to do it! I also think the gym might help me out even though I am not a real big fan of them.

 

Cheers

Anna,

 

My recomendation is to perhaps take a course on anchors and protection, possibly at a gym or with a guide, and don't be afraid to stick with trad climbing.

 

Many people believe that they have to sport/gym climb for a long time for a while before they are ready to get into trad. Not true. Sport/gym climbing can be a rut that may hinder your trad climbing ability in the future.

 

I toproped for a long time before leading, and learned how protection worked by placing my own toprope anchors (the bluffs of Devil's Lake Wi are perfect for this) then I got a meger rack and worked my way up the grades leading roues that I had toproped many times. It wasn't untill several years later that I did my first "sport climb." This worked for me, so in my opinion I think you should stick with it. You'll find folks who are willing to show you, if not...pay them, it's worth it.

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Hey LAME - BONE, It's not about who has a right to climb a route because the climb is there, it's about who has the right to climb because they are prepared - experienced - and at least have some confidence. Read the posts by ANNA herself, she pretty much admits that she had no "right" to be on that climb. Maybe you should give your head a shake pal. If a friend of yours said to you, "ya, I have not climbed for 4 months, I have very little idea on how to place natural gear, I am not feeling good about this, I am not familiar with this climb at all, I don't know how to set an anchor, I don't know where the anchor is etc. etc. " would YOU say "c'mon dude, just climb it, you can do it, ROck on man." (puff-puff)???? THINK ABOUT IT LAME-O.

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I did not say Anna was NOT cool, (cool is an ambiguos word anyway), just read the posts and try and see my point here. She needs to not put the cart before the ox.

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what are you doing inside on such a gorgeous day wanker [Roll Eyes]

 

i myself am typing this on my quokka enabled web phone from 7000m on the west facew of k2. i will let you know when i send.

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HOLY SHIT! Me too but I am about 1500feet above you, c'mon up and we can have some chai and work this out. This is an acclimation day anyway.

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To ANNA, TRASK, OFF WHITE, IAIN, and anyone else who thinks their shit don't stink.

 

I think I've more than proven that im a superior pilot over Anna. I wanted that known, for all to see.

 

Moreover, I would like everyone here to know that I'm superior to every last one of you in every way concievable.

 

There you go, asshole right.

 

If you people can't accept constructive advise in the true spirit of helping others not make dangerous mistakes, then the HELL WITH YA!

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quote:

Originally posted by Lambone:

quote:

Originally posted by Anna:

Hey Thanks for the reply Mister Chips...it took a lot of time to build up enough guts to post about how utterly stupid I was and now you have made me feel like shit. YOU have never made a wrong desicion in your life I guess. Many times we are in situations that we just wing it but I KNOW THAT IT WAS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I felt good about climbing the route to start because of the difficulty rating and the fact that I had lead before, but I WAS WRONG.....it was a mistake! Be nice.

Anna,

 

As RuMR and others suggest, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about what happened, as it was probably a result of your more experienced partners decision to put you on the sharp end.

 

That route ain't 5.4

 

Shit happens, people make bad calls, if you live through it you come out wiser climber.

bottom line, you can not teach someone who is unwilling to learn or advise someone who will not listen.

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Oops...

 

[ 11-02-2002, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Muffy The Wanker Sprayer ]

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quote:

Originally posted by shredmaximus:

Well if she had made it to the top of the climb she would have had bolts as her anchor so no problem there.

Flashback: May 2002, Smith Rock, OR

 

A group of 5 people use cc.com to organize a weekend of climbing at Smith Rock. We decide to spend the first day cragging at The Student Wall of the Gorge. We do a couple of climbs, and then Anna decides that she would like to work a TR of Astro Bunny (5.10b/c). As she does not have anchor gear, she borrows a cordelette and 4 locking biners from a fellow climber. Both I and the other climber ask if she is comfortable setting an anchor with the supplied gear, which she says she is. So, she walks to the top, sets an anchor, and comes back down. I give hear a belay on the climb, which she is unable to finish, and lower her back down. Anna gives me a belay, I reach the top, and discover that the anchor is textbook wrong - the cordelette is looped between biners connected to 2 bolts, and the rope is running through 2 biners that are clipped over top of the cordelette. I tear down, walk to the bottom, and immediately make Anna aware that her anchor was "spooky" and proceed to instruct her on the correct way to construct an equalized anchor using a cordelette. At this point she admitted that she needed to read more books and gain more knowledge of climbing systems.

 

The next day Anna did her first trad lead on Spiderman Buttress, having only done one previous sport lead and having minimal trad experience. Feeling that Anna was an accident waiting to happen, I left the scene. This accomplishment was posted on cc.com, to which she received broad praise, support, and accolades.

 

Knowing Anna and being aware of her character, I saw this accident coming a long time ago. Sometimes, being kind and polite does not do the job - some people just have to learn things the hard way. I am thankful that this accident did not have more serious consequences.

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Anna, you said it yourself, "I don't have an ego with climbing but I do with flying" or something of that nature back in the postings.

 

jkrueger, You seem to see what I am doing here and have direct experience to back it up.

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Reading that posting by jkrueger only re-affirms my instincts and pre-conceived notions about Anna's experience and ability. Things like this can not be simply swept under the rug. I am not trying to be a jerk, just the voice that so many others are afraid to speak or selectively choose not to listen to.

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I agree... and yet I am a total wimp [big Grin]

 

climbing is one of those things that to excell at you have to be bold. I feel that boldness must be tempered with knowledge and experience, or you die.

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Or you can kill someone else too. I think most of you will read this page and hopefully sit back and realize the underlying and often overlooked reality of the situation. I am not one of those people who speaks his mind at the crags (unless it's a perilously desperate situation that warrants immediate attention), I chose to pack my gear up quietly, mind my own business, (cause it is'nt), and leave the situation/scene. The forum is easier, people are not caught up in the 'real life' situation, and under normal conditions (rare), a 'conversation' can ensue, and people can take/give opinions, guidence, advice, criticism, etc.

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Going against party line can have it's disadvantages, but again, it's a voice of concern and awareness. Otherwise it can become like "THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND" or would it be "THE BLIND LETTING THE BLIND LEAD".

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two thing to remember folks...

 

1) you have to keep your wits about you when you climb.

 

2) there is a MAJOR difference between confidence and OVERCONFIDENCE.

 

In order for all of this to work, for us to be a comuinty, for all of us to meet each other and climb and have rope ups and other fun things we all have to take personal responsability. We have to be honest with ourselves about our own ability levels and with our climbing partners. If we do not do this, this forum looses it's integraty and we don't get to do this any more... we will become like the dinasours.

 

(I know integraty, what am I thinking? [Wink] but realy almost everyone one I have met here has been solid and straight up about there skill level and what they are comfortable with. had it been or if it were to become the other way arround, i doubt I would be interested in posting here or climbing with those I met here. Your word is your bond and your honnor. I think even trask would agree with that. yes I know we joke arround alot and yes I am one of the worst, but when it comes to actualy climbing I hold it as my responsability to my self and my climbing partners to represent my ability and experience as honestly as possible)

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quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Shoes:

To ANNA, TRASK, OFF WHITE, IAIN, and anyone else who thinks their shit don't stink.


Dude, it smells like strawberries, how did you know?

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(Page top, it seems.)

 

Shitty climbers die. Mistakes cannot be made. I wish I had some empathy for you, Anna, but I don't.

 

Mistakes in judgement, like routefinding errors, can be forgiving, but mistakes involving the mechanics of climbing are not. The rope is life, and if you fuck it up, if you clip in wrong, or set a bad anchor, you're toast.

 

Anna represents a segment of the climbing community that make mistakes, the ill-trained novices that climb without having a clue, and say things like "I should read more books" when they touch death without knowing it and walk away. Luckily, her mistakes didn't kill her. More importantly, though, is that her mistakes didn't kill someone else. Like me.

 

When I spend time at the crags and run into gapewads new to the game, I get as far away from them as I can. They drop shit. They set anchors wrong. They use fixed protection in a way that can damage it for the next user. New climbers are a threat to my safety.

 

But I was a gapewad once. Have I made mistakes? Sure. We all have. But I can think of only one that involves a mistake with the rope. I stumbled on a pile of rope, untied, after finishing an aid-solo pitch. I wasn't that close to pitching off, but it scared the shit out of me.

 

That's it. Nothing else. I learned to climb from an old salt, and when he wasn't around, I climbed like I could die at any second. I've spent hours equalizing the legs of a coffee table to the legs on the couch, and setting C-Z pulley sytems to drag chairs across my living room. I've drawn diagrams of anchors I've set, and analyzed them for areas of improvement. I've developed a sense of flexability that allows me to set up a safe rope system in the worst choss.

 

My advice to you is to start over. Quit climbing. Forget everything that you know. Flush your system. Start from scratch. Learn what safe is, and be that way every fucking time you rope up. This isn't a game. If you fuck up again, you better hope you get killed. Because you may have to stand in front of someones loved ones and explain to them how you made a mistake, how you fucked up and took that person out of their lives forever. Have fun.

 

[ 11-02-2002, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Necronomicon ]

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