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Anna

I've been humbled

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Here's a [big Drink] to that rusty piton on Saber that saved Anna's ass!

Isn't there a sheared off piton on that route?

 

Ditto trask. Practice placing pro and setting anchors.

While I have not won the Darwin Award, I have done plenty of stupid climbing shit myself. The important part is to learn from your mistakes. Learn or die.

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thebest thing to do in situations like that is to go out and climb again as soon as posible, but climb somthing that is at or under your level. this will do 1 of two things, yuo'll get your nerve back and learn from your mistakes, or you may decide to just stop climbing. i hope you do get out again anna and if i may make a recomendation, take a 2 or 3 day trip to vantage with some one who can leadwell and follow some straightforwad crack. most vantage climbs are straight up and would give you a chance to see what good placements look like, also read climing books w/pics to see what placements should look like. and ancor setups always with 3 equilized peices ( whenever posible)that way if one does pull you have back ups. so in other words stick to single pitch for a while and climb easy straigh forword stuff

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Anna,

 

Although I believe what I have to say is "intuitive", it is NOT fashionable. However - I am convinced, over 35 years of experience, that the safest way to learn traditional lead skills is to begin by AIDING easy climbs. It's how I learned (back in the 60's) without a mentor, and how I successfully taught over the years, first friends, then as one of a few "renegade" guides who believed, inspite of the AMGA preference at the time, that professional guides ought to offer leading instruction to clients who wanted it, and finally, as a trainer of professional guides. You get to make many times more placements per pitch, and you get to fully test each and every placement, and your placements are spaced closely enough so that if you "blow" one, your fall will be painlessly short. As a bonus, you will learn (by experience) far more, far more quickly, about rope-handling and systems management than you could possibly learn from placing gear that you never truly test on climbs that you could probably do unroped. Perhaps a "change of pace" might be more productive than quitting?

-Curt

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Wow Anna I didn't realize that it had affected you that much. I know the feeling though. You step back and think what the heck am I doing!

 

As far as your fall goes...I really feel partially responsible. I should not of lowered you down off that anchor. You should have rappelled. I don't know what I was thinking...obviously I wasn't thinking. It didn't seem that far to lower, maybe 10 or 15 feet and you would be on solid footing. I guess it just seemed like the easiest way to get you down. Your anchor could still have failed, but I think I put you in way more danger by lowering you off. I guess I was in "Smith mode".

 

The other mistake we made, is that neither of us had done the climb before. I didn't know exactly where it ended up, and I was in no position to talk you though it, because I had know idea what you would encounter if you kept going. Leading stuff you've already climbed on top rope is pretty key when you are just starting out. Somehow that got lost as we got all caught up in the excitement of another great day of climbing in Leavenworth.

 

This all just makes realize how little I know and how much I still have to learn. Like others have said, this is all a never ending process and we learn something from every experience. Unfortunately in this case, that knowledge came at your expense Anna, and for that I'm sorry.

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Um, if she rappelled off that anchor wouldn't she have decked? Maybe she should get instruction from someone with more experience.

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quote:

if she rappelled off that anchor wouldn't she have decked?

Yeah maybe...it just seems like there may have been less force on the anchor.

 

I agree that she prob should have been with somebody with more experince but it was a large group and we wanted to do the easy climb (5.4) so that's the way it ended up. I'm sure many of us have been in that situation. This stuff really makes you think.

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Goddam! I come back to the board today and all the response....I thought that I would get "suck it up" replies, but instead I get so much support and advice from y'all.

 

I'm sure sketchy things have happened to y'all climbing at one point or another and I am glad that I could share about my inexperienced ass and get such feedback. Kudos to Jon and Tim for the site! What a steller group of folks, some of you I've met and climbed with and some I will probably never meet, the climbing community in the PNW is amazing...LOVE YA

 

I don't believe any y'all are harping on me. I need some strong advice and like a kid I need guidance from my elders (well, with respect to experience in climbing, not age [Wink] . It will be a long while till I am ready to lead again but it does intrigue me, that is for sure. Like flying, I need to learn the correct procedures and ease into it slowly. Right now my first step is to read some books and hunt for a solid, experienced, PATIENT partner who wouldn't mind teaching someone and not get paid for it [big Grin] .

 

Thank you everyone!

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Seriously though...what do people think of rapping vs lowering off a questionable anchor? It seems to me rapping would be the way to go but what do I know???

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One other note. You don't have to lead to climb. There's a few folks I climb with that just want to climb but don't like the lead thing. The idea is to have fun, get a little scared, and have a beer afterwards with friends, and to live to climb another day.

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quote:

Originally posted by Anna:

Shame on you Greg
[big Grin][big Grin]

I have taken all these suggestions and I think doing lots and lots of sport leads (well when I feel comfortable leading again) is what my next step is going to be. Thanks to all of you! Now I just need to get some time off work and school to do it! I also think the gym might help me out even though I am not a real big fan of them.

Cheers

Anna, let's go flying and think about something else! [Cool]

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quote:

Originally posted by shredmaximus:

Seriously though...what do people think of rapping vs lowering off a questionable anchor? It seems to me rapping would be the way to go but what do I know???

I would look at downclimbing and not weighting the anchor if on easy terrain. Down aid climbing is always a good option if you can get pro. Other than that I would lower an equalized anchor.

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Mr. Chips - STFU.

 

I agree with Lambone (someone getting this down? [Wink] ), with the exception that these skills can be imparted by a skilled partner as well. I learned (and still do) from my partners and from reading books and putting that info. into use. Use the off-season to educate yourself as much as possible; both of John Long's books on climbing anchors are excellent tools to have on your shelf.

 

Greg W

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Lambone,

 

I think Mr. Chips does have a point in saying that the partner should have been a little more diligent. How do you think the people there would feel if they had to cart out a dead person? I can't even remember how many times i've seen something sketchy and said something and there was no accident to deal w/... I totally agree w/ Mr. Chips saying she got away w/ pure fricken' luck...hell, the piece that caught her she didn't even place...Now assuming that the anchor she placed was (or should have been) multiple pieces, and they all blew, what is the likelihood that the critical piece of gear, had she of place it, would have held...My vote is absolutely ZERO and in good conscience, I would have stepped up and said "I don't think you can lead this and if you choose to proceed i am not going to be a party to it"...

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Point taken RumR, I think it is the lack of tact that Mr. Chips displayed towards Anna's experience. It's obvious she's a bit shaken, no need to be an asshole in your response.

 

Highlander's post regarding downclimbing is a good one that no one has mentioned, especially given the route. Which was Saber (5.4) on Castle Rock, I do believe.

 

Greg W

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quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Chips:

Hey LAME - BONE, It's not about who has a right to climb a route because the climb is there, it's about who has the right to climb because they are prepared - experienced - and at least have some confidence. Read the posts by ANNA herself, she pretty much admits that she had no "right" to be on that climb. Maybe you should give your head a shake pal. If a friend of yours said to you, "ya, I have not climbed for 4 months, I have very little idea on how to place natural gear, I am not feeling good about this, I am not familiar with this climb at all, I don't know how to set an anchor, I don't know where the anchor is etc. etc. " would YOU say "c'mon dude, just climb it, you can do it, ROck on man." (puff-puff)???? THINK ABOUT IT LAME-O.

There you go again...who the hell are you to assume that I would even consider something like that? Not to mention to suggest that I smoke dope and climb...have we ever met, do I know you? I think not. Perhaps you should ask me how many people I have instructed in climbing before you go making such assumptions.

 

I am not judging Anna's decision/mistake/luck/whatever as you are. I am saying that based on what I have read, I think you are a pompus asshole to say to someone that they have a "right" to climb something or not. You are the guy at the crag who puts out the attitude at the crag that makes me want to leave.

 

[ 11-01-2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Lambone ]

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Hey Thanks for the reply Mister Chips...it took a lot of time to build up enough guts to post about how utterly stupid I was and now you have made me feel like shit. YOU have never made a wrong desicion in your life I guess. Many times we are in situations that we just wing it but I KNOW THAT IT WAS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I felt good about climbing the route to start because of the difficulty rating and the fact that I had lead before, but I WAS WRONG.....it was a mistake! Be nice.

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lots of good points here. climbing is about taking responsibility for yourself, and in posting Anna has, in a way. Anna, I'm glad you came away from it ok. climbing is about finding limits, knowing limits, and transcending them sometimes. I think anna has learned some valuable lessons, and there is little we can offer her that she can't or hasnt figured out already. If you choose to climb again, Anna, you'll do so with a much better understanding of consequences than many of us here. Good luck, Alex

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Ya Greg, maybe she should have had one of those books in her back pocket on the climb. You know, whip it out in times of doubt, nothing like learning as you go. Must I say this again, READ ANNA'S POSTS, she was not prepared to be on that particular climb. Do firemen head into a fire situation with no formal training and hope for the best? I really don't think so. It's typical of the "standard cc.com junkies" to band together and look at this as a chill situation. Imaging if Anna died, what would the report say -"experienced climber fell to her death climbing a route in a style she was familiar with, it was a freak accident and we can't figure it out" NO it would say the complete opposite!!

 

Anna, sorry, but someone needs to be blunt with you and tell you that you fucked up big time and that you need to get prepared properly before climbing again. you're going to the gym, what the hell will that do for placing gear? This is one of the most basic and fundamental issues with climbing, Get trained properly and ease into it. lead harder routes while being toproped in event of a fall on your gear. if you have no confidence in the gear, then work on it in a safe environment.

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Lambone...

 

I'm not sticking up for Chippy's lack of tact at all (ref. Gregw here)...but what i think what he's saying should be she had "no business being on the sharp end on that route" versus "no right ......"

 

you know that you've seen some really really shitty stuff at the gym and said something to prevent an accident...being an experienced climber, you KNEW something wasn't right and it was your obligation to say something...face it, her partners are just as responsible (if she tied in w/ them) as her for her situation by virtue of the fact that they were experienced enough to know better...

 

Mr. Chips could probably use a course on pc talking but i think his points are valid...except for the personal slam on you...I have seen you do exactly what he is saying, albeit in a "kinder, gentler" fashion.

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quote:

Originally posted by Anna:

Hey Thanks for the reply Mister Chips...it took a lot of time to build up enough guts to post about how utterly stupid I was and now you have made me feel like shit. YOU have never made a wrong desicion in your life I guess. Many times we are in situations that we just wing it but I KNOW THAT IT WAS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I felt good about climbing the route to start because of the difficulty rating and the fact that I had lead before, but I WAS WRONG.....it was a mistake! Be nice.

Anna,

 

As RuMR and others suggest, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about what happened, as it was probably a result of your more experienced partners decision to put you on the sharp end.

 

That route ain't 5.4

 

Shit happens, people make bad calls, if you live through it you come out wiser climber.

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I was suggesting the gym to practice sport lead. Bluntness...all these folks said the same FUCKING thing but with soft edges yo...I could have died that day. I WAS AN IDIOT, I KNOW THIS. You're mean.

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Anna...

 

as you said it "live and learn"...in the final analysis, you'll be a far better climber because this happened and you got a chance to walk away from it to come back w/ a bigger set of tools (not your partners, but your skillz [smile] )

 

I think just about every poster (including mr. chips) has done something stupid once or twice (and sometimes more) during their climbing career...and the fact that they are here to *critique* your experience that day is only because they got their share of good luck on a bad day...

 

Good luck and if i bump into you in cognito at smith or somewhere else, i'll share a rope w/ you...

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Okay, I got a little more over zealous than I should have, for that I am sorry. RuMr, I am glad you see my points here, responsibility is not just to the leader. Anna, I just don't want you to shrug it off, wipe your brow, and say "fhew, that was a close one" and not see your position in all of this. You must recognize where you sit in the scheme of climbing and re-evaluate. It seems to me that you are, and that is good, but I lashed out (lo siento) because others (belayers/friends) were not stepping up to responsibility and because the thread seemed to have a bit of a laid-back feel to this very serious issue.

 

Lambone, sounds like you are experienced, good for you and so am I. I would think that as a fellow instructor/guide you would see the value amidst my misguided angst. ??

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i hate my dinosaur computer...hit the add reply key too many times...i am a dumbass...

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