ridgeline Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 According to IDs website their eVent version of the MK series is no longer available. Wonder why?? And I was going to buy one this spring. AAARRGGHH! How are those BD firstlight tents working for people in high winds? Good 4 season choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 oooooooo..... Out of Print, Hard to Find! Check with some of their online dealers, like prolite gear. They might still have some in stock (their website seems to indicate that they still have some). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 How are those BD firstlight tents working for people in high winds? Good 4 season choice? The BD tents are EPIC fabric; apparently not such a good choice for winter camping. COLIN SAID : Oh, and a gear note: A tent made of epic fabric does not work for full-on winter conditions, in fact it was totally miserable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen_Ramsey Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 (edited) How are those BD firstlight tents working for people in high winds? Good 4 season choice? The Firstlight is a trade-off, like anything else. It is super-light, and because of that it makes for a decent 3-season tent, and a great emergency bivy sack for two (without poles it probably weighs under a pound). However, in my experience it doesn't stand up to wind-driven rain the way a true 4-season (e.g., Bibler Eldorado/I-Tent) tent does. This even after seam-sealing the tent. As for structural integrity, well, just compare the tent side-by-side to a Bibler or equivalent 4-season tent, and you will see that you are not getting something for nothing; it is hard to imagine the Firstlight is as strong as a true 4-season tent. I will continue to use the Firstlight sometimes because it is so lightweight, but I just don't expect Bibler performance and burliness out of it. Just my gumby $0.02... Edited February 15, 2005 by Stephen_Ramsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideT61 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 What was it Colin didn't like about the epic tent? I test lots of fabrics at work and know that epic does have better breathability than other wpb fabrics. Below freezing no wpb fabric breathes because the water vapor freezes and can't pass through any wpb fabric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I think it had more to do with the fact Epic is not waterproof and the thing is a sieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RideT61 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I mispoke. I meant eVent not epic. eVent is very breathble (relative to other wpb's and very waterproof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I've had a chance to use both the eVent and Epic tents a fair amount now, and compare their breathability and weather resistance. First off, the eVent tents absolutely rock. They are just as weatherproof as Toddtex/Tegraltex, but significantly more breathable. I had been planning on getting one of my own for about a year, but kept putting it off. I'm really bummed now, because I can't get one, and no other bivy tents available right now are as good. The Epic tents are good for summer use with only slightly bad weather, but they aren't a full-on tent. I found that in the winter, they breathe worse than eVent, and they even seemed to breathe worse than Toddtex/Tegraltex. When using them in summer though, they seemed to breathe just fine. I don't know why they breathe so much worse in cold weather, but it was very evident. When we were on Stuart the inside walls of the tent were icing up at least twice as bad as with standard I-tent or MK1-Lite. As for why eVent tents are no longer available - it's not Integral's choice. I guess that the eVent company decided for liability reasons that they didn't want their fabric used on tents, as Gore did back in the day. How very lame that we have to buy worse tents because of stupid imaginary liability issues. Major bummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Can't you just email them and tell them you want one? ID is a tiny tiny company! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridgeline Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 I'm assuming the fabric is no longer in production for this tent but does not prevent distributors from selling available inventory. i.e. no recall on the product so I confident I should still be able to find one. but before i save up the $$$ is the question. Or just wait for the next great fabric to come along..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Maybe they can make ToddVent or TegralVent the way they made ToddTex and TegralTex when they couldn't get Goretex anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denningsrogue Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 eVENT tents are no longer available because GE bought the company that produces eVENT. Following the acquisition, GE changed the licensing terms for the fabric, prohibiting its use for tents because of liability concerns. Apparantly the fabric does not meet certain fire retardency standards (or at least hasn't received the required certification). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Epic doesn't either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denningsrogue Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Same issue different legal department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Epic doesn't either. BD made/sold in the US - less restrictions, ID made/sold in Canada - more (a lot more) restrictions. In the nutshell, the idea behind this specification is, when the fabric caught on fire and start melting the fabric completely dissipates without dripping or creating a large flame. The Canadians think that this is important safety issue the Americans could care less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 BD mabe/sold in the US - less restrictions, ID made/sold in Canada - more (a lot more) restrictions. In the nutshell, the idea behind this specification is, when the fabric caught on fire and start melting the fabric completely dissipates without dripping or creating a large flame. The Canadians think that this is important safety issue the Americans could care less. Umm, no. California, Minnesota, Michigan, Louisiana, Massachusetts, New York, and New Jersey have tent material flammability requirements, in addition to Canada. Most companies don't want to deal with fragmented distribution/being liable if one accidentally gets sold in the above states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 BD made/sold in the US - less restrictions, ID made/sold in Canada - more (a lot more) restrictions. Umm, no. California, Minnesota, Michigan, Louisiana, Massachusetts, New York, and New Jersey have tent material flammability requirements, in addition to Canada. Most companies don't want to deal with fragmented distribution/being liable if one accidentally gets sold in the above states. Hummm... NO!!! “Less restriction” implied 43 states out of the 50 (+ one district and one Province (edited to satisfy the bickering Nazi)) state in the United states have no restrictions only 7 states have restrictions therefore the United States (=U.S.) have less restrictions than Canada (With its 5 tangible Provinces (edited to satisfy the bickering Nazi)…not independent states) And NO Companies do not mind “fragment distribution” (although they PREFER unlimited distribution) that is why eVent is available here just no one made tents out of it yet. One other example is the Epic fabric Same deal, black diamond still making them and with no intention of stopping production for the above reasons and they don’t mind the “fragmented distribution” And as for the Liability they solved it via “Very Creative” way “Please note: In order to save weight and preserve breathability this tent is not treated with a fire-retardant. Black Diamond, therefore, encourages the use of basic safety precautions and common sense when using any tent, treated or not. We can not ship this tent to addresses in MA, NY, NJ, LA, MI, MN, CA or Canada. Imported.” (REI) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Post deleted by Ade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Entertaining but somewhat off topic States/Provinces can be found here: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/438714/an/0/page/0#438714 There was some sort if issue with Biblers and fire retardant. I'm sure that someone told me Biblers were fire retardant coated and it was worth washing them to remove some of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 That must have been what that stench was on my Bibler when I first got it. It smelled like a smoke house or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 How are those BD firstlight tents working for people in high winds? Good 4 season choice? So here's the deal with the Firstlight we used on Stuart both times: It breathes a helluva lot better when you fully close the vent and door at night. It took numerous nights of condensation accummulation to figure this out. And it sure is light. When it's blowing like stink, snow/ice particles seem to blow THROUGH the fabric and melt onto one's already pathetically insufficient sleeping bag. Not so fun. Did I mention that it sure is light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_Husbands Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Since folks seem to debate the merits of these BD tents, i thought i would share an email i got from BD after a sideline inquiry i posed while negotiating a warranty issue on an entirely different product. Basically i asked how these thin walled tents worked out in high winds and very cold conditions. Here's the reply i got from Scott Shillingshaw. "Hi Mark, Thanks for taking the time to write. The Firstlight and Lighthouse are not really designed for heavy rainfall. That being said, if you seam seal the seams, the tent should hold up quite well in alpine and even arctic conditions. However, in terms of actual use, we just got this e-mail back from Jack Tackle who tested a prototype in AK. ""As far as real life experience in the field, here's what we found in AK. Charlie Sassara and I ended up on Mt. Huntington because the ice routes we were looking for in the Ruth weren't there yet. It had been too cold for melt/freeze cycles to form things up/ We tried to do a fast blast of a variation of the Harvard route on the West face. RobertY got me a year old Lighthouse dealer demo tent, which we took on the route. We got halfway up the face in 12 hours, a storm was coming in and we decided to bivy instead of bail. We sat in the Lighthouse in 30-40 mph winds for 36 hours while it dumped a meter of snow.( Hooked into new C4 camalots and pins) The base of the route had so much snow that we lost Charlie skis in 6-7 feet of snow. The tent held up pretty well. It did frost up quite a bit from our breathe at night and from running the stove. But, in some ways no more than an I-Tent would have. It's not very breathable because of the weave and silicone treatment, but it was very waterproof and did quite well in the wind. For a 3 lb. tent I was impressed."" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 My take on the information posted. Snow cave: Weight in pack. 0 oz. Not very breathable. Can be damp. Stuff does not dry well. Seems to frost up a little and door allows some spindrift. Solid in the wind. BD Firstlight 2lbs 8oz. Takes up less, the same or a little more room than a couple bivy sacks (depending on what you own). Drier & less frosty than a snow cave. Lets less spindrift in than cave. Does not stand up to the wind as well as a snow cave or heavier tents with more guy line points. Easier to cook in than a bivy sack. Better solution when there is not terrain that allows a cave. Event tent: Heavier and takes up more room than Epic tent. Breathes better in cold alpine condition (according to posts above). The 1st light is not a "do it all" bulletproof tent but I sure like it for what I use it for and appreciate BD making it. If I was man enough to carry a big and heavier pack, I might be trying to score an Event tent before they are all gone. If circumstances left you with a frozen & shreaded 1stlight "on route". There's always a snowcave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridgeline Posted February 28, 2005 Author Share Posted February 28, 2005 I think these #’s are accurate assuming getting the “light floor” option on the IDs: BD Firstlight = 2lbs 8oz. ID MK1 Lite = 3lbs 14 oz. ID MK1 XL = 4lbs 4oz. I’m deciding between these 3 tents and boy is it tough! Looking for a new 4 season single wall for 2 people for all lower 48 climbing and a potential AK trip. I can’t find anyone with the eVents. For people with experience with these tents: Do you feel the extra weight of the MK1 XL is worth the added room over the MK1 Lite? If not, and by extension, are the extra weight and potential durability factor of the MK1 Lite outweigh the weight savings of the BD FL? Compromises, compromises, compromises…. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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