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Jake

Bringing up two seconds

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or Mammut Matrix or Kong Gi-GI

 

I believe all of the autoblock devices work better with skinnier ropes; I know the Reverso does. Fat ropes, 10+mm, create a lot of drag which means a good workout for the belayer.

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You dont use an ATC "with" a GiGi. You use the GiGi to belay seconds and ATC to belay leader.

 

It can be a little bit harder to unweight a loaded GiGi than a Reverso

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The hands free belaying with a Gi Gi or Reverso makes the rope management issues of two simulataneous seconds completely managable.

 

The Reverso (typical for Petzl) comes with a fat instruction guide. Its all you need.

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Once you have a reverso or a gigi, the game has just started. Actually belaying two people simultaniously and keeping the rope from becoming a snarled mess are the real difficulties behind these pieces of equipment. So here are a few hints:

 

1) Make sure your ropes are relatively close to the same length. A few feet different is no big deal, but a fifty meter rope and a sixty meter rope together tend to cause problems.

 

2) Stack the ropes together. Many people try to separate them into two different piles, but if the ropes are similar in length, then it won't be such a big deal.

 

3) Tie into one rope. Clip the other rope to your belay loop with a locking biner. This way when the tangles start to appear you will be able to deal with them by simply unclipping and untangling, then reclipping. Obviously you should be belayed on the rope that you are actually tied to.

 

4) At the end of each pitch, restack the rope so that you might lead again. You don't have to separate the ropes when you restack them, but if you run them through your fingers, separating the strands and then laying them down together, ultimately any twists will come back to your end of the rope where they can be easily managed by unclipping from the rope hooked to you with a locking biner.

 

5) Lead in blocks. It's dumb to constantly switch around who's tied to what when you get to your belay station. Make a decision about how many pitches each person will lead and then lead them all in one shot. Switch leaders in places where it's easy to do so, usually on ledges.

 

6) At hanging belays the ropes are generally draped over the anchor point where the belayer is tied in. The belayer will belay, but the other climber can help him by making sure that the rope feeds nicely without any snarls or snags working their way up the rope.

 

7) If you are leading off of a hanging belay, expect a moment here or there where you have to stop while the belayers deal with a snarl in the system.

 

8) And lastly, belaying two people at the same time can be very difficult. It is not uncommon for one person to climb faster than the other. If you are with beginners, put the stronger climber behind the weaker climber. The stronger climber will be responsible for cleaning gear and coaching the weaker climber periodically. This order will keep them from going radically different speeds.

 

Jason

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3) Tie into one rope. Clip the other rope to your belay loop with a locking biner. This way when the tangles start to appear you will be able to deal with them by simply unclipping and untangling, then reclipping. Obviously you should be belayed on the rope that you are actually tied to.

 

 

Could you re-explain this one please?

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3) Tie into one rope. Clip the other rope to your belay loop with a locking biner. This way when the tangles start to appear you will be able to deal with them by simply unclipping and untangling, then reclipping. Obviously you should be belayed on the rope that you are actually tied to.

 

 

Could you re-explain this one please?

 

The whole idea here is to tie an overhand eight into the end of one rope (rope #1) and to tie directly into the other (rope #2).

 

Clip the overhand eight to your belay loop with a locking biner on rope #1.

 

You will be belayed on rope #2 because you will be tied directly into it.

 

Because you are able to unclip rope #1 it will be easy to deal with snarls, twists and tangles at belay stations. To deal with them you simply must unclip the rope from your harness and unsnarl the rope. Once the rope is fine, you may reclip and climb your next pitch.

 

Jason

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man i'd like to see the UIAA recommendation on that one!

 

I guess I'm not making myself clear. You never load the belay loop with a locker attached to it. This is merely to pull the other rope up while you're climbing.

 

This is the simul-belay style that is currently being taught by the AMGA and the ACMG.

 

Jason

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So more like climbing with a haul line than climbing on double ropes?

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Exactly, you're not climbing on double ropes the way I described it. You could do a double rope system, but then you have to tie directly in with both ropes.

 

With double ropes or half ropes -- as opposed to two ropes that are rated individually for individual use -- it's a bit more of a pain in the ass. One person must often climb around the rope as he or she reaches the belay station in order to untwist the ropes. If you're concerned about weight, this might be okay with you. If you're concerned about time, the other method might be better.

 

In theory, it's not so good to be belaying an individual climber on a single half-rope. We all know that it's probably okay, but it's not recommended.

 

Jason

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In theory, it's not so good to be belaying an individual climber on a single half-rope.

 

Jason

 

I saw a climber trying to second the first pitch of Gimli S ridge deck from 30 feet up due to rope stretch on a skinny cord shocked.gif

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Whatever you do, use great caution if you decide to bring two seconds up with a non-locking device like an ATC.

 

I did this a couple of years back on an easier climb with two dialed-in partners and we made short work of it. We had the security of a rope and noone fell or hung, and all was cool and quick.

 

Then I applied this technique on the Split Pillar and one guy was pumped out of his mind (had taken a big fall trying to lead it, then lowered). So anyway, I'm belaying both of them from the top with an ATC. The not-pumped guy in front, then the pumped guy. The pumped guy falls, of course, and he's dangling. So I've got the ATC locked off, but the other guy doesn't realize the implication of this and is still climbing. Soon he's got a big loop of slack on his rope and he starts screaming, "up rope".

 

Not good. hellno3d.gif

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So with a Reverso (or any of these other devices) can you still bring in one rope while the other rope is locked off?

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So with a Reverso (or any of these other devices) can you still bring in one rope while the other rope is locked off?

yes thumbs_up.gif

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I haven't found the "autoblock" feature to be so easy to get to work on my B-52. Any thoughts?

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Thought #1: maybe you should have bought a Reverso instead of a B52

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The reverso is the way to go. The only problem is that I find its hard to give one person slack while keeping the other person tight. Minor issue.

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The reverso is the way to go. The only problem is that I find its hard to give one person slack while keeping the other person tight. Minor issue.

 

Not a big issue at all with practice.

 

Jason

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8) And lastly, belaying two people at the same time can be very difficult. It is not uncommon for one person to climb faster than the other. If you are with beginners, put the stronger climber behind the weaker climber. The stronger climber will be responsible for cleaning gear and coaching the weaker climber periodically. This order will keep them from going radically different speeds.

 

i'm a huge proponent of the reverso. i led several multi-pitch climbs with two seconds two summers ago and it was a godsend. i agree with most of what jason said, but i think that a few of his points could be managed a little differently on a case-by-case basis. for example, on two big [easy] classic climbs in yos i had one really slow climber who was new to multi-pitch climbing and not very experienced and one much faster balls-out more experienced climber. if i had put the fast climber below he would have either attempted to climb past the slower one or would have pressure him to go faster. i had him go first and clean the gear and let the third climb leisurely at his comfort level. this worked exceptionally well for all of us. (luckily the 2nd never dropped any gear on the 3rd!)

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The reverso is the way to go. The only problem is that I find its hard to give one person slack while keeping the other person tight. Minor issue.

 

Not a big issue at all with practice.

 

Jason

 

So what's the technique here? I've always found it a little difficult to give a single follower slack with a reverso in auto-lock mode. With one person hanging and another climbing I just assumed it would be near impossible to pay out slack.

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