Off_White Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Ditto what Mike said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illini Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I would also consider buying a pair if the pick was replaceable. Yea I trust you that they are burly but I'm sure I could find a way to break one. It seems absurd that it is not an option if it would not require a design modification. Â Was Grivel concerned that customers could buy a replacment pick and then machine their own shafts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treknclime Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Count me in...I'd buy a pair, too, Mr. T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael_H Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I'd be considering it then too, because I'd get a second pick set and modify - thin out - for ice. Â I think Grivel put these out for marketing reasons - to be ahead of others. This way all the testing is done by users and they release a full(er) version later. All the while being considered the leader. MSFT does this often. Â BTW, it's not about breaking the pick, but filing it down really quick. The mass market is not the pros, I had nice and round picks (BD) after just one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenumber3 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 When I finally make the decision to buy a set of tools, I know I won't buy any that don't have replaceable picks. It seems like such a waste when it should be such an easy feature to implement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I'd definately pick up a pair for myself, so would a couple people that I know. I definately agree with others in that it just adds to our wasteful nature (culture) to produce 'one time use' items (although these will last more than one day out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyang Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 From an engineering point of view - would it make sense to have a replaceable pick ? Once the pick is worn out, is the shaft / handle / whatever still likely to be "good" (whatever that means precisely), or is it more likely to be fatigued enough that it should be retired ? Â Granted, I am not expecting that a corporation will report engineering data that isn't in line with its economic goals. But as a consumer I would be more inclined to buy a technical tool that would last a while and has a potentially decent resale value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 From an engineering point of view - would it make sense to have a replaceable pick ? Once the pick is worn out, is the shaft / handle / whatever still likely to be "good" (whatever that means precisely), or is it more likely to be fatigued enough that it should be retired ? Why would it be any different that any other ice tool? Â As it stands now the pick is "replaceable" one need only take a grinder to the mushroomed bolts and obtain a replacement pick. All Grivel has to do to make it replaceable is make sure the bolts aren't mushroomed leaving the factory and sell replacement picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 I think the solid steel shaft on the monsters will outlast many of us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyang Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Why would it be any different that any other ice tool? Â dunno. that's why I asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 I might be going to be hammered on that, but… Why are picks so expensive that warrant >400% markup Why the Monsters picks are are particularly expensive? Is picks are Forged, stamped or cast? a relatively CHAP processes. Is any of the picks out there is CNC a complex and expensive procedure that warrant high ticket price IMHO, the picks production for ice tools is the biggest rip-off there is b/c now they got you by the balls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 So to take stock, that's roughly 8 people who would buy a pair outright if Grivel just offered the pick for sale. That's roughly $2000 in retail sales (not to mention the $1000 in maybes). Assume grivel nets something like 30-40% (??) of that, that's $6-800. Why not just skip the risk and cost of distributing and put a note up on your website saying picks can be ordered right from Grivel? Â If $800 can't get it up on the website, you need to fire Twight as your webmaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted January 27, 2005 Author Share Posted January 27, 2005 Standard markup is 42% for the climbing industry (hardwear specific). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 This is not what I got as a Quote when I spoke to some steel manufactures out east and when I showed them the design I wanted they said it was incredibly simple and they can do a replica of this all I have to decide is what metal I wanted and how much (CM Cascade). I also asked them if they can guarantee the same strength throughout the batch and they said no problems now I have to get enough buyers for the picks at $4 a piece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 When the C-M Quark first came out Charlet at a bit of difficulty making picks so I suspect that it's not completely trivial. In addtion C-M has to pass the CE T/B standard which adds cost. What sort of forces did the manufacturer quote? There's also the liability issue. Â Did you ask how big a minimum batch was? How many replacement picks do you think C-M or Grivel sell each year. I can imagine $4 per pick on a batch of 100,000 but I suspect that these things are manufactured in much smaller numbers and the retooling cost is a big, possibly the biggest, factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 It is for 500 of them a little more if I need metal analysis to have the same exact specs of metal alloy, weight and temper but this will be happening only in the first batch and as I said I wont have to pay any certifications unions also there is no major tooling involved here no marketing, no sponsorship no shows hence the lower cost BTW they are doing mechanical parts for cars and aviations so I think an Ice tool pick will be trivial for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakherdingsherpa Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 in 2-5 years (or whatever) when you've trashed the picks on your monsters, you'll want to buy the newest and greatest in leashless tools which, by then, will not be the monsters. Â Like these?: Who makes that tool? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Is that Aragorn????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 It is for 500 of them a little more if I need metal analysis to have the same exact specs of metal alloy, weight and temper but this will be happening only in the first batch and as I said I wont have to pay any certifications unions also there is no major tooling involved here no marketing, no sponsorship no shows hence the lower cost BTW they are doing mechanical parts for cars and aviations so I think an Ice tool pick will be trivial for them What the fuck is your point? Ice picks are simple, so what? I looked into making ice tools had a machine shop lined up who'd make be BD tools for 30% of retail. (which isn't signifigantly different than BD's production costs) I did the math and found I could make more money spending my time elsewhere. Unless you feel like being the climber charity you won't price the picks at $4 for long, because you can make more money, and you'll be a business like everyone else. Except they have engineers working for them, who are designing products, and who know what the hell is going on, like the difference between machining and forging, and that CNC is cheap. Â As a guess you were quoted for a machining a blank to shape not a forged pick - forging would require tooling, and a tool setup fee. Forged picks will be more durable than machined picks. But you seem to know everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steddy Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 layton: a throw away ice tool just emphasizes our ridicously wasteful culture ...but then we wouldn't have an excuse to collect all of their grooooovy shafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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