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Terminal_Gravity

Irresponsible Posts

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SK - It is really quite simple those I call "friends" tend to care about my feelings and I tend to care about theirs. Since my friend's actions were causing me discomfort I was confident he would want to know it. So I told him my thoughts, we discussed it and he thought I was goofy but modified his actions because he realized I was being sincere. And guess what! We still climb together today! Although not as often as there are a few thousand miles between us. I would hope all our friends are so available to all of us.

 

As a sidebar I would just say that over 20 years ago a tearful and shaking woman came up to me as I was bouldering and said:"your friend fell." My friend was merely a person I had a short conversation with at the base of a climb in a popular park in CA. I went off by myself and he started up his climb only to fall to the ground from near the top. He survived but was seriously injured.

 

But I am afraid we have moved far afield from TG's initial post on this thread.

 

PP

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I am getting your point PP, I just don't realy agree with it. If say Texplorer and I were climbing together and he told me he could solo something I would be inclined to believe him and trust that he is going to take care of himself and do what is within his ability. I get that when we climb with others we should be able to be honest and up front with them about how we are feeling... but I do not think that MY feelings or YOUR feelings should rule the universe... If feelings ruled, I would have to give up climbing alltogether because frankly it scares the shit out of my mother... and I love her alot. [Razz]

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PP: "Back in the 70s I had a partner who use to solo all the time. We got into many arguments when I would ask him to stop if others were around. My reasoning was that he was being a jerk to risk falling in front of others who had no say in his actions. If we were by ourselves, I let him solo away. As with posting advice the context was everything."

 

pp: "SK - It is really quite simple those I call "friends" tend to care about my feelings and I tend to care about theirs. Since my friend's actions were causing me discomfort I was confident he would want to know it. So I told him my thoughts, we discussed it and he thought I was goofy but modified his actions because he realized I was being sincere"

 

Why did it (friends soloing) only bother you when there were other people around? Cause it looked like he was burning you off? [Confused][Razz]

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quote:

Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

Consider: would you really want someone following the advice that you're giving? I think advocating free soloing verges on irresponsibility, IMO. I've done a bit of soloing, sometimes getting myself in situations that I now feel fortunate to have come out of alive. I doubt I did this because someone advocated soloing, but regardless, I'd never advocate something so inherently dangerous. I think I'd be a bit horrified if someone died due to my "advice".
[big Grin]

You know what? I give advice to people who I know are going out with other people. Giving advice to someone who is soloing or going out with other people is NO DIFFFERENCE. Advocating soloing is just as dangerous as advocating to go out and climb Liberty Bell with the Mountaineers. Climbing is dangerous no matter what you do. Even the standard route on Rainier with a guide. Either solo or with a group. I bet each and every one of you has given advice to someone.

 

Fuck. While we're on it. My aunt gives advice to her daughter for raising her two grandchildren. And guess what? The daughter is raising the two grandchildren SOLO. I Guess that's irresponsible!!!!!!!!!

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quote:

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Sk - From your reply I think that you are not getting my point but that it is my in inability to articulate well.

you are just learning what all men eventualy learn

[Wink] it is pointless to argue with me [Wink]

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quote:

Originally posted by Ropegun2002:

We all wish sk would get our "point"

HOW RUDE

[Razz]

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quote:

Originally posted by sk:

quote:

Originally posted by Ropegun2002:

We all wish sk would get our "point"

HOW RUDE

[Razz]
Thanks! (She wants me)

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quote:

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

But I am afraid we have moved far afield from TG's initial post on this thread.

 

PP

There are some great posts on this thread. The subject of soloing is an interesting one to me. But, the subject of the responsibility to others when posting advice I think is an important issue on this board.

 

I have often stated on this board that I think that glacier travel without a rope can have an acceptable level of risk for a very experienced climber under certain conditions. I doubt very many would un-equivicably disagree. I would hate to think that a newbie would prance off across a glacier saying " I want to be like TG...If that fat old fuck can do it; so can I!" [laf]

 

I think that it should be stated that nothing on this board should be taken as gospel. Every climber is ultimately responsible for their own actions. I also think that within reason, every poster should feel free to post any opinion they have.

 

[ 09-24-2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

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"You know what? I give advice to people who I know are going out with other people. Giving advice to someone who is soloing or going out with other people is NO DIFFFERENCE. Advocating soloing is just as dangerous as advocating to go out and climb Liberty Bell with the Mountaineers. Climbing is dangerous no matter what you do. Even the standard route on Rainier with a guide. Either solo or with a group. I bet each and every one of you has given advice to someone."

 

I've never climbed with the Mountaineers, but maybe you have a point there. Maybe I'll add that to my list: Don't advocate climbing with the Mountaineers!

 

"Fuck. While we're on it. My aunt gives advice to her daughter for raising her two grandchildren. And guess what? The daughter is raising the two grandchildren SOLO. I Guess that's irresponsible!!!!!!!!! "

 

Gee. Changing diapers, or soloing, say, Orbit (which I've done). Unless the kid's got aerosolized E. Coli coming out her ass, I think many would think a little diaper change to be SAFER!

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The original post wasnt quite about soloing, but it was about "irresponsible advice" posted here and how to potentially recognize it or regulate it, or what to do about it. From what I understand at some point TG suggested someone try free soloing to get over leaders' fright...(correct me if I am wrong)?

 

I have a few thoughts on this

 

One, irresponsible is a subjective term since we all have varying skill levels and varying levels of accepted risk associated with climbing. So I don't know how you could ever legitimately call anything irresponsible. It might be perfectly sage advice *for a given audience* -- and the only thing is you dont know your audience well here in an anonymous setting.

 

So water it down so every post is targetted at the lowest common denominator, the newbie? Poor solution, and one that would never work without moderation of the board (by someone who is subjective anyway!).

 

Disclaimer to shield Jon and Tim from lawsuits brought about by people (a la Chouinard fame) who sue because there wasnt adequate warning/instruction and who are not willing to take responsibility for their actions? I think legal precedent is that disclaimers wont shield you from the real deal, just like liability waivers wont shield guides even though they hope it will.

 

What then? How does one try to offer "good" advice to an audience when the audience is an unknown, and the topic is so highly complex and subjective? How do you treat people with respect and as a peer when they or their skill level in truth might deserve anything but?

 

I guess in the end, the oldest advice is treat others how you would want to be treated *if this were not a nameless, faceless medium*

 

TGs advice was only that, the reader can choose to take any advice into consideration, and make their own choices.

 

I personally would have recommended climbing routes with easy starts and hard finishes, that force you into falls. People who are intimidated by leading often are afraid because, despite what everyone is telling them, *they dont trust the gear, or themselves*. There is only one way to learn to trust the system...excercize it. At smith, JTs route is a great route to force a fall on a reluctant leader. I believe at least one poster here can vouch for that!

 

[rockband]

 

Alex

 

[ 09-24-2002, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Alex ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

to a novice that climbs 5.13s
[Confused]

I wish I was a novice who climbed 5.13!

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it is totally safe to use a Gri Gri and let go of it at any time despite what Petzl says.

 

ropes are for wimps.

 

snafflehounds do not carry rabies, so feel free to eat'em.

 

it is totally safe to top rope with a rope run through a single strand of webbing.

 

bolts should be added to all routes you feel unsafe leading without them.

 

the safest place to stand during a thunderstorm is right on the summit, holding all the gear you can grab.

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Always climb under large parties of mountaineers.

 

Use hemp ropes they are stronger and make for a good first aid kit if you need a smoke.

 

Never wear a helmet ice climbing because ice is so slippery it will just glance off anyway.

 

Ropes are for weenies.

 

Ice axe leashes are aid climbing tools.

 

Everything is really A1. People are just arrogant.

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Always tie in with the rope around your neck.

 

Use a granny knot when you tie 2 ropes together for rappels.

 

Carry a knife to cut the rope if your partner falls.

 

Let go of the rope when your partner takes a fall.

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