salbrecher Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erden: Hey Fence Sitter: why don't you masturbate on your own time, dick head... We are talking about another fellow climber who died on Disappointment Cleaver this weekend. You have no room on this forum as far as I am concerned. Those who hide behind aliases and are allowed to get away with shit like this need to be moderated with a heavy hand. Erden. QUICK, QUICK, someone take away his freedom of speech!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Ok calm down fellas. What other areas are there that are good for teaching groups besides Mountie Dome, there has to be others? Why do you guys insist on fighting for the same spot? I think it would be nice if there were no large groups on the Mountie dome on the weekend at all so us non group people can climb on it, give us a chance to use the place to teach newbies. I'm not trying to turn this into a mountie bashfest but I would like to see the Mountaineers and other organized groups start using other areas for a change, or do those trips on weekdays. It's not fair for any group to assume they have the whole area for the day because they are a large group and are teaching beginners and this is the best place to do it because it is close to the road etc. etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leejams Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Yeah but look at it this way, more than likely we all have a bit of french in us from somewhere sometime. Hey, maybe that is where we all get a bit of that assholeitis once in awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 someone hesitated [ 09-23-2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 sounds like the two groups did a little spontaneous negotiation and everybody got their goals accomplished. [ 09-23-2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Thinker ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 No worries, Dwayner. For next year's trip, you'll be able to apply for a permit for many of the popular crags in the Icicle. Permits will be required from May 15-October 15, and will be issued by the Leavenworth RD in March. Application deadline is March 1. Permits will run $3.00 per climber per day, and climbers will wear a permit tag on their harness in addition to their parking permit. One permit maximum per person per season. Any climber caught without permit will be subject to fine and will be required to leave the area immediately. Ought to help keep the crowds under control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 allison, i thought if you were caught without a permit, they executed you right there and then charges your fmaily for the service, the disposal and then a additional special fee permit for recieving a bullet from a discharged firearm... larry is gonna be busy.... watch out weight wathcers...the permit enforcement will get ya slim!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleeveless Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Hmmm, until I'm King, and designate my own lane in rush-hour traffic, front of the line passes and own all the routes on popular climbs ... I guess I should realize that I AM just as much of the problem instead of the exception! Until then, BITCH and WHINE ON!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 If there are eight or more in your party, a 20% "Larry the Tool" gratuity will be automatically be added to your bill. Thanks and have a nice day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILuvAliens Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 erden from what I heard no one kicked a rock down on anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erden Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 True iluvaliens, and don't take it personally. The question is: would you want to have people above you where the rock has the propensity to fall on its own even without people traveling over it? I would expect that your reaction would be the same even if you did not belong to any climbing organization. It is common sense, and you tell people to wait their turn. That is what we do in the civilized world at sea level, and we do not have to give up our manners just because we are in the mountains. Passing other parties is an art, and we see that everyday in the Valley in Yosemite. The situation is not any different if you want to get on the SF of Washington Column in Yosemite, for example. In that case, there has to be a gentlemen's agreement negotiated in that the party passing would not do the last pitch into the exit gully, and would just rap the route down short of the top. I guess there are ways to negotiate, and if passing means the other party will be exposed to the same dangers that I am currently exposed to by being under them, the question I would ask is not whether and how I can pass them to push the risk on the other party, but whether I should be under them at all. Think of the ridiculous accident on Mt. Hood with helicopters crashing, people pulling each other into the bergshrund... This is what I am trying to get to, being bull headed in the mountains means trouble. There is always another mountain, there is always another time. Best, Erden. [ 09-24-2002, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: erden ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Dwayner: You should forward some version of your post to both the WAC and the Mounties, because it is an issue that won't be going away, and as organizations they should work on adopting some policy that emphasizes the sharing aspect. Lots of folks get taught by friends rather than classes, and it is a drag to have ideal beginner climbs perpetually occupied by groups. I know there are climbs at Squamish that suffer the same fate, but I don't know if the classes there take the "I claim this crag in the name of the king of Spain" approach. Does a class show up and festoon all of the Burgers & Fries crag with a rope from every anchor? I know Mclane does make a point of talking about etiquette for popular climbs in his guide. [ 09-24-2002, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Off White ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erden: iluvaliens says: "Had an experience with them on Rainier/Cleaver. Their fearless leader refused to let the three parties(including mine) by under the pretense that we were all going to kick rocks down on THEM!" In case you missed it, a climber died by falling rock on DC this weekend. They just came down. Are you saying once you are climbing the DC route no one should pass? That seems unrealistic. My guess is a larger group is more likely to knock down rocks than a smaller one, particularly a larger group of people who are not ready to break away from the security of a group climb on DC and will probably be slow at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Jon, you make good suggestions although I am not sure how practical they all are. Also we should not lose perspective of the important role played by the mounties with respect to introducing, year in and out, group of novices to the sport (and at little cost). I don't mean to give them a blank check to invade popular beginner spots yet I am not sure they do so an unreasonable number of times per year considering the above. Perhaps someone is keeping count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 erden, one thing about your post that makes me disagree with you....conditioning.. usually a faster party is in better shape. people in better shape make better decisions as their bodies are not as taxed and therefore have the extra capabilities to make good decisions. also people who are taxed in such an enviroment tend to more sloppy, not making the best steps and what not, thus possibly kicking down rocks or other debris..... so a slow party slowing down a faster approacing party increases the potential os danger more so then a fast party attempting to pass another...most people who are efficent and tend to pass people also have the ability to pass with making little of an issue. also another far fetched issue that may arise is the slower party creating a bivi situation for both parties. you said that courtesy should be applied the same in the mountains as at sea level, well think about this...it is illegal in the state of washington to hold up 5 vehicles, slower vehicles are required to move to the right. so by your logic, you are required to allow a faster party to pass. certainly your desire to make the summit and not feel as you had been bested by another should never be a concern, becuase climbing really has little to do with the summit. have fun and i will pass you if i need too, with or without your consent! [ 09-24-2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: erik ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Off White: Dwayner: You should forward some version of your post to both the WAC and the Mounties, because it is an issue that won't be going away, and as organizations they should work on adopting some policy that emphasizes the sharing aspect. Lots of folks get taught by friends rather than classes, and it is a drag to have ideal beginner climbs perpetually occupied by groups. I know there are climbs at Squamish that suffer the same fate, but I don't know if the classes there take the "I claim this crag in the name of the king of Spain" approach. Does a class show up and festoon all of the Burgers & Fries crag with a rope from every anchor? I know Mclane does make a point of talking about etiquette for popular climbs in his guide. Back in the spring, Capt. and Highlander and I showed up at this crag at Skaha that was covered with ropes for a guided class of about 10, I guess. They had maybe 7 ropes set up (7 ropes for max. 5 climbers at a time ) but the guides went out of their way to direct the clients to move out of our way and let us lead climb what we wanted to. I thought that was pretty cool of them and maybe more should consider acting like that. Also at Squamish, guides have developed these various small, obscure easy craglets specifically for teaching on and no one else ever seems to climb there - Call it A Day at Smoke Bluffs and Oh My Dog at Cheakamus [the latter one isnt even in the guidebook and is probably the only cliff at Cheak NOT set up for leading on making it a TR heaven] [ 09-24-2002, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Dru ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Dru, Are you implying there could be other "roadside" crags with in a short drive of Mountaineers doom featureing low to mid 5th class rock? Even anchors you can walk to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Bronco: Dru, Are you implying there could be other "roadside" crags with in a short drive of Mountaineers doom featureing low to mid 5th class rock? Even anchors you can walk to? Sure. The aforementioned RotoWall for instance. The left side of Domestic Dome. Sunset Slab at Pechosstin. Bruces Boulder, Barneys Rubble. Rat Creek Boulder. XY crag. etc etc. I dont doubt either that the new Kramar guide will have even more XY crag type crags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEF Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 May I echo Jon’s sentiments? A lot of groups, non-Mountaineer and Mountaineer alike, use Mountaineers Dome for instruction, precisely because it works so well for that. I am very interested in equally good alternative spots on the Icicle or in Tumwater canyons that are useable, but have seen no suggestions. If we can identify some spots like Dru mentions at Squamish, we can all benefit. I have to agree with Dwayner, that an attitude of sharing should prevail. I’ve also been on both sides of the dilemma, teaching a group at a crag, but also taking one or two people out and finding a big group at a spot we want to work. If my group is at the crag, I emphasize that if we have a route that is idle, then anyone who appears to be waiting for it be invited to jump in and either use our TR, or lead it on their own. If another group arrives, we negotiate. I have arrived at 8 mile rock and seen TR’s hanging from all routes, with long periods of inactivity on Classic or Deception cracks, or the face route to the right. I’ll ask who a long idle top rope belongs to, and will be told that so and so is still working the route. ??? Don’t get me wrong, I am happy to wait if someone is really on a route. If it is my TR on the route, I try to let others know they can use of the route whenever the rope is idle between climbs, and try to pull promptly when done. On passing on climbs, glacier trade routes are a bit different than technical rock routes. On the glacier, if you are the faster party, you can usually just go around the other party. I just thought it was a fact of life, whether I was the passer or passee. Face it, on these climbs rock or ice fall is an ever-present objective hazard and you do not have much realistic control of who may be above you. If descending, the passing party will be below your potential party inflicted rockfall, so the issue cuts both ways. The Rainier fatality was tragic, but I have seen no suggestions that another party induced the rock fall. On rock routes, passing is a bit tougher, but common courtesy, in my view, is to allow faster parties through. If at the start of a route, someone claiming to be faster may not be at all. On Outer Space, my party was just starting when another, claiming to be fast, asked to get in front. I said OK, but after we completed the first two pitches (Remorse start, and they were not yet ready to climb). After the first belay, we never saw them again. We had lunch and lounged for an hour on top and still saw no sign of them, and were very glad we were not behind them. I just try to be reasonable, what is so hard about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 I'm going to weigh in here, too, now that everybody has had their say. I am one of the WAC instructors that was there on Saturday (not one of the organizers, just one of the gumby instructors that day). I arrived a few minutes late, and thus missed the conversation that 'Red' had with 'Dwayner', so I can't really speak to the tone of the exchage....and I won't. What I will say, is that we had 3 ropes set on the middle buttress for lead climbing instruction...not too unreasonable for a group of 8 students. (Does that qualify as 'festooned'?) The class format that day involved a student climbing on toprope, placing gear, trailing a mock lead rope, and then simulrapping with an 'instructor' to analyze gear placements. Obviously only 3 students could climb at any given time (3 ropes). The remainder of the students were practicing anchor construction around the corner in some boulders, with several more instructors. (Does that qualify as a monopoly?) As noted in my earlier post, a reasonable compromise seemed to have been achieved. Dwayner expressed his need to share the rock, the WAC pulled a rope on the lower buttress (the only rope on that buttress) and made room for his small group. I don't see the problem. After Dwayner's group did their thing and left, numerous other climbers made their way up the hill and climbed without any problem. On Sunday the WAC moved to the much maligned Rotowall and practiced self-rescue and multipitch anchor scenarios. As someone else noted in a trip report yesterday, Mounties Dome was deserted all day Sunday. Staging the 2nd day of our class at Rotowall had been our plan for several days prior to the weekend. I know for a fact that a number of WACers have read this thread, so rest assured it's been given some attention. I also emailed your original post to 'Red'. Dwayner, I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt by that mean girl. I'm glad you accomplished your objectives that day. Thanks for the complement on our being organized and having fun, we pride ourselves on just that. However, in my strictly personal opinion, I think you may have exaggerated a few of the items in your initial post and thus whipped up a bit of a stir here. Also, in my strictly personal opinion, I really wonder how receptive you'd have been to another group horning in on your prized spot on the Mounties Butt if you had gotten up an hour earlier and arrived first. btw, how many students and instructors were in your group? [ 09-24-2002, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Shut up and look at my cool photo It's way better than this gibberish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 yeah ray!!! stoke that shit my man!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Yeah Erik Blum's NR bushwacker's delight :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 What the hell is that thing in the foreground of the first picture? the canadian fertility god? Nice pictures Captain, too bad they're not bigger. [ 09-24-2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Bronco ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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