Jump to content

Iraq - Vietnam


Dave_Schuldt

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 40
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I am deeply concerned about Iraq. The task you have given me is becoming

really impossible. Our forces are reduced now to very slender proportions.

The Turkish menace has got worse; Feisal is playing the fool, if not the

knave; his incompetent Arab officials are disturbing some of the provinces

and failing to collect the revenue; we overpaid £200,000 on last year's account

which it is almost certain Iraq will not be able to pay this year, thus entailing

a Supplementary Estimate in regard to a matter never sanctioned by

Parliament; a further deficit, in spite of large economies, is nearly certain

this year on the civil expenses owing to the drop in the revenue. I have had to

maintain British troops at Mosul all through the year in consequence of the

Angora quarrel: this has upset the programme of reliefs and will certainly

lead to further expenditure beyond the provision I cannot at this moment

withdraw these troops without practically inviting the Turks to come in. The

small column which is operating in the Rania district inside our border

against the Turkish raiders and Kurdish sympathisers is a source of constant

anxiety to me.

I do not see what political strength there is to face a disaster of any kind, and

certainly I cannot believe that in any circumstances any large reinforcements

would be sent from here or from India. There is scarcely a single newspaper -

Tory, Liberal or Labour - which is not consistently hostile to our remaining in

this country. The enormous reductions which have been effected have

brought no goodwill, and any alternative Government that might be formed

here - Labour, Die-hard or Wee Free - would gain popularity by ordering

instant evacuation. Moreover in my own heart I do not see what we are

getting out of it. Owing to the difficulties with America, no progress has been

made in developing the oil. Altogether I am getting to the end of my

resources.

I think we should now put definitely, not only to Feisal but to the Constituent

Assembly, the position that unless they beg us to stay and to stay on our own

terms in regard to efficient control, we shall actually evacuate before the

close of the financial year. I would put this issue in the most brutal way, and

if they are not prepared to urge us to stay and to co-operate in every manner

I would actually clear out. That at any rate would be a solution. Whether we

should clear out of the country altogether or hold on to a portion of the Basra

vilayet is a minor issue requiring a special study.

It is quite possible, however, that face to face with this ultimatum the King,

and still more the Constituent Assembly, will implore us to remain. If they

do, shall we not be obliged to remain? If we remain, shall we not be

answerable for defending their frontier? How are we to do this if the Turk

comes in? We have no force whatever that can resist any serious inroad. The

War Office, of course, have played for safety throughout and are ready to say

'I told you so' at the first misfortune.

Surveying all the above, I think I must ask you for definite guidance at this

stage as to what you wish and what you are prepared to do. The victories of

the Turks will increase our difficulties throughout the Mohammedan world.

At present we are paying eight millions a year for the privilege of living on an

ungrateful volcano out of which we are in no circumstances to get anything

worth having.

 

Winston S. Churchill to David Lloyd George

(Churchill papers: 17/27)

1 September 1922

 

From Martin Gilbert, WINSTON S. CHURCHILL IV, Companion Volume

Part 3, London: Heinemann, 1977, pp. 1973-74. Reprinted by kind permission

of Winston S. Churchill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't W claim victory and an "end" to the war more than 6 months ago - some photo op on top of an aircraft carrier? Yet we have lost (and keep losing) more troops and civilians than during the time we were officially at "war" with Iraq. I think I heard the death toll of Iraqi civilians was more than 100,000. Iraq is every bit as disastrous and unnecessary as Vietnam - IMHO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing I hate: The expression that "freedom isn't free" which I heard over and over yesterday. Such bullshit. So how much did Switzerland "pay" for their freedom...or Sweden for that matter. It just kind of insures that the US will always be at war - in some form or another - because we "fight" for our freedom - dammit!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

America...

America...

America, FUCK YEAH!

Coming again, to save the mother fucking day yeah,

America, FUCK YEAH!

Freedom is the only way yeah,

Terrorist your game is through cause now you have to answer too,

America, FUCK YEAH!

So lick my butt, and suck on my balls,

America, FUCK YEAH!

What you going to do when we come for you now,

it's the dream that we all share; it's the hope for tomorrow

 

FUCK YEAH!

 

McDonalds, FUCK YEAH!

Wal-Mart, FUCK YEAH!

The Gap, FUCK YEAH!

Baseball, FUCK YEAH!

NFL, FUCK, YEAH!

Rock and roll, FUCK YEAH!

The Internet, FUCK YEAH!

Slavery, FUCK YEAH!

 

FUCK YEAH!

 

Starbucks, FUCK YEAH!

Disney world, FUCK YEAH!

Porno, FUCK YEAH!

Valium, FUCK YEAH!

Reeboks, FUCK YEAH!

Fake Tits, FUCK YEAH!

Sushi, FUCK YEAH!

Taco Bell, FUCK YEAH!

Rodeos, FUCK YEAH!

Bed bath and beyond (Fuck yeah, Fuck yeah)

 

Liberty, FUCK YEAH!

White Slips, FUCK YEAH!

The Alamo, FUCK YEAH!

Band-aids, FUCK YEAH!

Las Vegas, FUCK YEAH!

Christmas, FUCK YEAH!

Immigrants, FUCK YEAH!

Popeye, FUCK YEAH!

Demarcates, FUCK YEAH!

Republicans (republicans)

(fuck yeah, fuck yeah)

Sportsmanship

Books

 

 

 

 

 

 

What would you do

If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom

What would you do

If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice

 

Would you think about all them people

Who gave up everything they had.

Would you think about all them War Vets

And would you start to feel bad

 

Freedom isn't free

It costs folks like you and me

And if we don't all chip in

We'll never pay that bill

Freedom isn't free

No, there's a hefty fuckin' fee.

And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five

Who will?

 

What would you do

If someone told you to fight for freedom.

Would you answer the call

Or run away like a little pussy

'Cause the only reason that you're here.

Is 'cause folks died for you in the past

So maybe now it's your turn

To die kicking some ass

 

Freedom isn't free

It costs folks like you and me

And if we don't all chip in

We'll never pay that bill

Freedom isn't free

Now there's a have to hook'in fee

And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five

Who will?

 

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?

Oooh buck 'o five

Freedom costs a buck 'o five

grin.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am deeply concerned about Iraq. The task you have given me is becoming

really impossible. Our forces are reduced now to very slender proportions.

The Turkish menace has got worse; Feisal is playing the fool, if not the

knave; his incompetent Arab officials are disturbing some of the provinces

and failing to collect the revenue; we overpaid £200,000 on last year's account

which it is almost certain Iraq will not be able to pay this year, thus entailing

a Supplementary Estimate in regard to a matter never sanctioned by

Parliament; a further deficit, in spite of large economies, is nearly certain

this year on the civil expenses owing to the drop in the revenue. I have had to

maintain British troops at Mosul all through the year in consequence of the

Angora quarrel: this has upset the programme of reliefs and will certainly

lead to further expenditure beyond the provision I cannot at this moment

withdraw these troops without practically inviting the Turks to come in...

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing I hate: The expression that "freedom isn't free" which I heard over and over yesterday. Such bullshit. So how much did Switzerland "pay" for their freedom...or Sweden for that matter. It just kind of insures that the US will always be at war - in some form or another - because we "fight" for our freedom - dammit!

 

Everybody always wants to take down the big dog. If you are weak, the path you chose to safety might not be the same as a big tough guy. Read this. It's pretty good. Long, but well worth it. It seems like a good theory. What do you think?Power and Weakness

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everybody always wants to take down the big dog. If you are weak, the path you chose to safety might not be the same as a big tough guy.

 

I don't think Iraq or Vietnam are situations where the people want to "take down the big dog". I think it's more like they want to kick the shit out of that big dog that's shitting all over their furniture and having their children for snacks.

 

It's a no-win situation. If we continue to get our asses kicked over there that will, of course, suck. If we somehow win (at obviously great cost as we have already paid a great price) it may ring hollow, as a "victory" will embolden "our" leaders to move on to the next nation-state that needs to be disciplined.

 

Although, I could be wrong about the second part. I don't really think Bush had the safety and security of the world in mind when he "rushed to war" against Iraq. Thus, I don't think it would be a given that he would move as recklessly against other nations as he did in Iraq, even though they are arguably as or more dangerous than Iraq ever was.

 

Finally here's distressing tidbit from the news today reminiscent of Vietnam days.

 

However, a steady stream of wounded being flown to the U.S. military's Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany suggests that fighting in some parts of Fallujah has been intense.

 

Hospital staff were expanding bed capacity as 102 wounded U.S. service members were flown in Thursday - up from the usual 30 to 50 a day the U.S. military hospital receives, officials said. A day earlier, 69 wounded were brought in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a no-win situation. If we continue to get our asses kicked over there that will, of course, suck. If we somehow win (at obviously great cost as we have already paid a great price) it may ring hollow, as a "victory" will embolden "our" leaders to move on to the next nation-state that needs to be disciplined.

 

How do we get out?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thus, I don't think it would be a given that he would move as recklessly against other nations as he did in Iraq, even though they are arguably as or more dangerous than Iraq ever was.

 

Maybe they aren't more dangerous (I assume you mean Iran and N. Korea). Maybe it's all just exaggerated - like the WMD programs in Iraq. If not, then what can we do about it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought you wanted to stay the course? confused.gif

 

If I thought there was a good way out, I wouldn't call it "no-win" now would I?

 

I agree with Colin Powell morally - "you buy it, you break it". But I don't know if we can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. I also worry that we would share in the responsibility of the deaths in a civil war that would undoubtedly ensue.

 

Damn the imperialist Brits with their artifical borders (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq...).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can you consider it broken??

 

Before we arrived it was a horrible place to live with genocide taking place everywhere you looked. Uday and Qusay froliced in their rape rooms on top of sacred ancient mass burial grounds. No Iraqi was left untouched! On top of that they were a danger to the security of every single person in the USA.

 

How can you consider it broken??!

 

Don't you think Iraq is a better place without Saddam?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can you consider it broken??

 

Before we arrived it was a horrible place to live with genocide taking place everywhere you looked. Uday and Qusay froliced in their rape rooms on top of sacred ancient mass burial grounds. No Iraqi was left untouched! On top of that they were a danger to the security of every single person in the USA.

 

How can you consider it broken??!

 

Don't you think Iraq is a better place without Saddam?

 

Yes, I'm glad he is gone. But the stage is set for a revolution with a political power vacuum, ethnic strife, chaos, and neighboring countries either worried or licking their lips with the promise of booty to be gained. Our presence is the only thing holding anything together, but, as you say, the cost is high.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Should we allow nuclear proliferation to occur?

 

Your premise was that they weren't more dangerous.

 

It seems clear that Iran is close to completing a nuclear reactor, but they claim it is for non-military purposes. The stance of countries with nukes is to not allow proliferation to new nations.

 

Even with nuclear power plants, one has to ask whether it constitutes a threat? It is hard to prove that Iran has military intentions, and it might be impossible to do until it is too late. And then what? Would deterrence be enough?

 

I guess in principle I am for non-proliferation, but I don't see how we can force it. It makes the evaluation of "threat" a lot easier, that's for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This discussion is supposed to be "compare and contrast Iraq and Vietnam". I don't see how delving into the threat that Iran poses makes sense.

 

Unless of course you are implying that Iran and North Korea were much greater threats to our security than Iraq ever was. From which it would follow that you are saying that the justifications we used to enter into this Iraq conflict were flimsy at best. From which stance you could make a good point about the similarity of this war to the Vietnam conflict.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This discussion is supposed to be "compare and contrast Iraq and Vietnam". I don't see how delving into the threat that Iran poses makes sense.

 

Unless of course you are implying that Iran and North Korea were much greater threats to our security than Iraq ever was. From which it would follow that you are saying that the justifications we used to enter into this Iraq conflict were flimsy at best. From which stance you could make a good point about the similarity of this war to the Vietnam conflict.

 

Yeah, OK, but threads evolve.

 

Similarities:

1) imperialism f**ked up the world (French in Vietnam, Brits in Iraq)

2) there's no good way out

3) threat of post war violence in the region (Cambodia vs. Kurds/Shia/Sunnis/Iran/Turkey)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...