scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 I'd support harsher penalties for deadbeat dads, but it's not really a man's choice in the end, is it? Women need to have the choice to get an abortion if all the social pressures and contraceptives have failed to keep her from getting pregnant when she didn't want to. You have to approach the problem of unwanted pregnancies from all directions without removing personal freedoms. The murder example was just to point out that "abortion = murder" is not a concept that everyone agrees on, so there is room for compromise. With freedoms comes responsibility. I feel that we must take responsibility for our actions. If that means having a baby even if it is inconvenient then so be it. Adoption is a route. There isnever a shortage of parent waiting to adopt. Baisically it comes down to convenience. Having a baby is inconvenient but is is the responsibility we must accept for our actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Dude, I said "not just" and then went on to say that the USSR suppressed Christianity, Judaism, etc. but they did just use atheism. It was part of every doctrine that they used. I was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 I'd support harsher penalties for deadbeat dads, but it's not really a man's choice in the end, is it? Women need to have the choice to get an abortion if all the social pressures and contraceptives have failed to keep her from getting pregnant when she didn't want to. You have to approach the problem of unwanted pregnancies from all directions without removing personal freedoms. The murder example was just to point out that "abortion = murder" is not a concept that everyone agrees on, so there is room for compromise. With freedoms comes responsibility. I feel that we must take responsibility for our actions. If that means having a baby even if it is inconvenient then so be it. Adoption is a route. There isnever a shortage of parent waiting to adopt. Baisically it comes down to convenience. Having a baby is inconvenient but is is the responsibility we must accept for our actions. Overpopulation is the most serious problem facing mankind. Why go out of our way to make this problem worse when there are extremely strong legal and moral arguments for letting the mother decide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Bush and company pounded the fear factor the entire campaign. Remember that if Kerry won the terrorists would be embolded and attack. They are fear mongers. That and getting the Christian evangelicals out in force is what they concentrated on. Of course this group wants holy rollers in the White House - they want the country to be run on religious values not secular ones. Basically the republican pitch is this: Vote for us or The terrorists will get you Gays will move into your neighborhood We will keep trying to ban abortion Morality? What is moral about lying about the reasons for war on no pretext? What's moral about continuing the redistribution of wealth to the upper 1%? What's moral about lying about environmental policy and skirting current laws? And what is so f****** moral about blowing the roof off the deficit so our kids have to be burdened with this? These guys are what they are. Brown shirt industrialists and empire builders false cloaking themselves in a pitch of morality to get themselves elected. Ralph Reed and the Christian Coalition will be banging hard on the White House door come time for a Supreme Court nominee. The Bushies owe him for getting out the evangalical vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 I'd support harsher penalties for deadbeat dads, but it's not really a man's choice in the end, is it? Women need to have the choice to get an abortion if all the social pressures and contraceptives have failed to keep her from getting pregnant when she didn't want to. You have to approach the problem of unwanted pregnancies from all directions without removing personal freedoms. The murder example was just to point out that "abortion = murder" is not a concept that everyone agrees on, so there is room for compromise. With freedoms comes responsibility. I feel that we must take responsibility for our actions. If that means having a baby even if it is inconvenient then so be it. Adoption is a route. There isnever a shortage of parent waiting to adopt. Baisically it comes down to convenience. Having a baby is inconvenient but is is the responsibility we must accept for our actions. Overpopulation is the most serious problem facing mankind. Why go out of our way to make this problem worse when there are extremely strong legal and moral arguments for letting the mother decide? I think calling abortion "population control" is sick personally. I am far mroe worried about over-population in say India. Now they have issues. I read a statistic that soon the U.S. will join Europe in having a negative population increase. Regardless, I don't think that population control is a good reason to encourage abortion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjd Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 How can progressives get conservatives to realize that the government should not legislate morality? How can Libertarians get Democrats and Republicans to realize that they don't have a claim on my income to give to others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 How can progressives get conservatives to realize that the government should not legislate morality? How can Libertarians get Democrats and Republicans to realize that they don't have a claim on my income to give to others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 How can progressives get conservatives to realize that the government should not legislate morality? How can Libertarians get Democrats and Republicans to realize that they don't have a claim on my income to give to others? Run for office as a Libertarian. Change the system. Oh wait, you wouldn't get elected. I wonder why that is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Polarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markinore Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 The whole issue of "moral values" as an excuse for voting for a particular candidate would be amusing if it weren't so sad. The moral values of loving one's neighbor, caring for the sick, feeding the poor, housing the homeless, and helping the sick don't mean shit. Bashing the homos, now THERE'S a moral value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Your confused Scott, "liberals" aren't for giving everyone abortions but for giving that right to choose to the mother, and to give her safe options. If you outlaw it you may decrease it the numbers, or you may just drive it underground and onto the black market. If a women really wants an abortion, she'll find a way. At least currently it's safe. -tearing down the 10 commandments. The country and goverment was designed as secular, tearing them down doesn't mean you can't believe them, or I can't believe in them. It only means they don't belong on a courthouse wall. -prayer in schools, only if it's not called prayer as everyone is not religious, and only if the teacher either teaches absolutely nothing about religion, or teaches them all equally, atheism included. (Had a great High school teacher who did just that! We studied Buddhism, Right after the Old Testament, and before the New Testament.) -afirmative action... agreed... dead already.... The mistake made is that by supporting personal choice people interpert choice as mandate and think the democrats want... -racial quotas for everyone to enforce equality -to enforce atheism on everyone and ban religion -to require abortions Looking at Kerry, he was Catholic, personally against abortion, and personally against gay marriage.... but doesn't feel the need to enforce his morals on everyone else, that doesn't make him immmoral, just considerate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Quite the truculent echo-chamber you've got going on in here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 I still don't think that killing fetuses should be legal regardless of what people do "underground." The 10 commandments are tthe basis of our legal system. It only makes sense that a historical document like that be there. I don't care about it that much, but I don't see why dems are so pissed about it (and reverse for the repubs). call it "spritual introspection" if you want. What is the big deal? Thank God. I will tell you that I think the killing of a child is murder and therefore against the laws of this country. I don't understand why people don't think this is murder; the killing of another human being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Schuldt Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 4 more years of right wing Christain nutballs making remarks that Osama can use as propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 The 10 commandments are a sticking point only because not everyone wants them and not everyone is christian. As a historical point they're fine, but it's not the history that makes them desirable, it's the fact they were handed down from god. If I were a muslim, i'd be scared shitless to walk into a southern court where the judge has set displayed next to the bench! I'd feel like I was getting a fairl trial. As for "spiritual introspection" or a moment of silence, fine... but how many classes would it immediately devolve into a teacher led prayer? Maybe not in seattle, but how about the bible belt or southern Idaho? Abortion, that's the sticky point, when do you define a fetus as a person? Conception? Implantation in the uterus? Heartbeat? Birth? 18yrs old? I would agree with Implantation in the Uterus, but I won't force everyone to agree with me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Scott, I lived in Newt Gingrich's district between the ages of 10 and 17. I think I know what I'm talking about. I go to church, I don't just live near one. You are full of it and are letting stereotypes dictate the way you think about another person. Give me a break. Scott, I don't have a problem with people who have conservative religious views. I have a problem when they impose their views on everyone else, and feel righteous while doing so. A smattering of things that happened where I grew up: 1) On a country-western dress-up day in school, about 25 kids show up in KKK garb. 2) Jewish kids get approached at their lockers and told, "If you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you're going to Hell." 3) Angry parents because they're teaching evolution in school. Students distributing creationist casette tapes in school. 4) County passes a resolution condemning the gay lifestyle. They don't repeal it, despite being threatened to lose an Olympic venue and millions in revenue (they lost the venue). 5) Father of roommate freshman year in college suggests that we hang a sign on our door saying, "Faggots not allowed." 6) Friend of mine (white) ridiculed for dating a black girl. 7) Dear friend of mine who came out in high school having to deal with hatred, people trying to "change him back," telling him he's going to Hell even though he's one of the most true Christians I know. 8) Friend of mine gets caught dealing at a private religious school. School expels him, but does NOT report it to the police because the school refuses to admit that their good Christian students have a drug problem. 9) Motivational speaker comes to a neighboring high school to speak at an official school function during school hours. The entire school is there, and he asks people who have been saved to raise their hands. 10) Our out-going SGA president gives a speech to the whole school body (during school hours) saying that he got this far in life because he believes that JC is his savior. Should I stop or keep on going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 but how many classes would it immediately devolve into a teacher led prayer? None. I went to public school before they took it out of the system and it was never led by the teacher and ws called "a moment of silence." Nothing wrong withthat I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 The 10 commandments are tthe basis of our legal system. It only makes sense that a historical document like that be there. What is this supposed to mean? Our legal system is a legal system based on individual freedoms of speech, religion, etc. Our legal system makes no reference of the ten commandments. Is adultery outlawed? Are all people required to "keep holy the Lord's day"? Swearing? Give me a break. This is another Christian wing-nut idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Scott, I don't have a problem with people who have conservative religious views. I have a problem when they impose their views on everyone else, and feel righteous while doing so. I am just throwing this out. Perhaps the reason that the religious rights are being fought so diligently is because people, like those on this website, constantly berate Christians and many feel that they are persecuted (at least on a personal level). If the Christians continue to feel attacked likely their defense of things such as school prayer and 10 commandment issues wouldn't be an issue. Many likely feel a sense of their extermination because of loud vocal persecution from people like Dave Schuldt. Perhaps if people like he were not so offensive it wouldn't be an issue. But alas it is a two way street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 The 10 commandments are tthe basis of our legal system. It only makes sense that a historical document like that be there. What is this supposed to mean? Our legal system is a legal system based on individual freedoms of speech, religion, etc. Our legal system makes no reference of the ten commandments. Is adultery outlawed? Are all people required to "keep holy the Lord's day"? Swearing? Give me a break. This is another Christian wing-nut idea. Jim Jim Jim. It is based in truth. The Judeo principles founded our belief systems. Lockean ethics etc. Social contract was written about in the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Where did you go to school? A moment of silence would be fine in my opinion. In all reality I think that's still used in some places, though typically not daily. I remember doing that after several national tragedies going through school. And while it's not a slippery slope exactly, I don't exactly trust people everywhere to stick to "moment of silence", in which case the teacher should be dealt with locally. Attaching the word "prayer" to it though, and you immediately raise the hackles of a lot of people on both sides. It's a fighten word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Well in the United States, I went to school in the Everett School System. Then they went completely left and baisically called me an idiot for believing in God. I was glad my family moved back and forth from Europe to save me from having to go through that all at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 I will tell you that I think the killing of a child is murder and therefore against the laws of this country. I don't understand why people don't think this is murder; the killing of another human being. BECAUSE IT'S NOT YET A HUMAN BEING! INCAPABLE OF LIVING BY ITSELF! I asked you before to define the beginning of life - you haven't. Until you define that your another right wing wackjob (the counterpoint to a leftwing loon) Acting on your "feelings" and "beliefs" the same touchy feely crap that the Republicans loved to slam democrats over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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