Stefan Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 . People only bolt becuase they can't climb the grades safely -- bolting is not for development, it's becuase some climbers can't climb the grades safely or confidently. Disagree. On some routes, ability does not define safety. Take some of the new mixed ice routes in the rockies for example. And lets not forget that the only reason ANY of us can climb above 5.11 is because we were able to train in safe situations. My point is thus. You can climb 5.11 becuase you can, maybe from training, and dedication. Would you bolt a 5.6 route? Probably not. But you probably would bolt a 5.10 route either becuase of your safety on the route or you are just lazy in placing pro. You don't feel as confident with 5.10 as you do with 5.6. (I cannot climb above 5.8) Now let's say joey (fictional man) can do 5.14 all the time. He is super confident in his abilities. 5.11 is a piece of cake to him and so why should he bolt a route? In other words, joey is climbing within his abilities. I have seen bolts on routes that are 5.4 . Heck I have seen bolts placed perfectly next to fine cracks. Should those bolts be there? At what grade do bolts become acceptable? More importantly, why do bolts become more acceptable at higher grades? More risk? Or is it becuase the person is climbing out of their "comfort zone"? Should the person placing the bolts be allowed to bolt becuase a route is out of their "comfort zone" wilst another person can just climb the route being completely "in the zone" without using bolts? Which begs to question. Why do I even use a rope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogen Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I think that, in theory anyway, bolts are used for protecting climbing on faces and sections devoid of other means. You are right of course, we place protection because we are not entirely confident we won't fall off. It is not just ability, but loose rock and spiders that might make you fall off. I think having some protection is a fore-gone conclusion for climbing in general and specifically in the bolting debate, but I guess it always good to question one's premises. BTW because/becuase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted September 28, 2004 Author Share Posted September 28, 2004 . People only bolt becuase they can't climb the grades safely -- bolting is not for development, it's becuase some climbers can't climb the grades safely or confidently. Disagree. On some routes, ability does not define safety. Take some of the new mixed ice routes in the rockies for example. And lets not forget that the only reason ANY of us can climb above 5.11 is because we were able to train in safe situations. My point is thus. You can climb 5.11 becuase you can, maybe from training, and dedication. Would you bolt a 5.6 route? Probably not. But you probably would bolt a 5.10 route either becuase of your safety on the route or you are just lazy in placing pro. You don't feel as confident with 5.10 as you do with 5.6. (I cannot climb above 5.8) Now let's say joey (fictional man) can do 5.14 all the time. He is super confident in his abilities. 5.11 is a piece of cake to him and so why should he bolt a route? In other words, joey is climbing within his abilities. I have seen bolts on routes that are 5.4 . Heck I have seen bolts placed perfectly next to fine cracks. Should those bolts be there? At what grade do bolts become acceptable? More importantly, why do bolts become more acceptable at higher grades? More risk? Or is it becuase the person is climbing out of their "comfort zone"? Should the person placing the bolts be allowed to bolt becuase a route is out of their "comfort zone" wilst another person can just climb the route being completely "in the zone" without using bolts? Which begs to question. Why do I even use a rope? It is my belief that there should be no bolts placed where natural protection would safely protect the route. This is a common understanding by my experience. If you are out of your comfort zone, back off. Just because you WANT to climb something that is out of your comfort zone does not give you the right to permanently change the route. Millions of people have taken the time to learn how to place natural protection safely. There is no excuse for bolts next to a crack. Find some top rope situations if you need to improve your abilities. And then practice aiding cracks to get used to placing gear. There are alternatives to bolting cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 (edited) As a general rule, I think, if you are going to bolt to make the climb safe, the defintion of "safety" ought to be for someone climbing at their limit on the crux of your route. Thus, a 5.4 route (if you really needed to bolt it) should probably protect a 5.4 leader. Conversely, a 5.10 route shouldn't need bolts right next to every 5.7 move. Oh...and I'll go way out on a limb here and agree with Bug saying no bolts right next to protectable cracks. Uhh...um...except to rapell from like on top of Prusik Peak. I think that's OK if those bolts are next to cracks. Edited September 28, 2004 by chucK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 i don't think its "millions"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted September 28, 2004 Author Share Posted September 28, 2004 It is. I counted. America, Europe, Asia. Add them up since the 70's alone. I'll bet you one burger at Gustav's that evidence from sales of passive gear will point at there being millions (2M or more)of trad climbers since 1970. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Heck I have seen bolts placed perfectly next to fine cracks. Should those bolts be there? At what grade do bolts become acceptable? Never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 but but but all of my cc.com friends tell me that the euros are all bolt happy wussies that wouldn't know what to do w/ a cam or a nut to save their souls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 http://www.peak-berlin.com/index/ueb/i_klemmkeile.html they suire sell a lot of trad gear here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 ...please wipe dripping sarcasm off of your forehead dru... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Heck I have seen bolts placed perfectly next to fine cracks. Should those bolts be there? At what grade do bolts become acceptable? Never. Ah yes, the delicious subleties of a conversation between adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 A bolt should never be placed near a protectable crack. Period. D.D.D. is a classic example of the climbing communities disdain for this practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 A bolt should never be placed near a protectable crack. Period. D.D.D. is a classic example of the climbing communities disdain for this practice. I see this as the most general rule--not placing a bolt next to a fine protectable place. Now I ask, if you can TOPROPE something, should you bolt a route? I thought rope was only for safety reasons, and therefore bolts are there for safety reasons. Why would someone NOT toprope a climb if that is the safest way to climb a potential TOPROPABLE climb? Why can't you toprope "To Bolt, Or Not to Bolt" and still do the same moves and be safer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted September 28, 2004 Author Share Posted September 28, 2004 Good question. There are a lot of bad answers out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 A really good point Stefan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 In many cases the only way you can get to the anchor is by leading, especially when the route is steep. In these cases you just can't toprope it! Also toproping is for Mountaineers and gumbies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Jeeze guys, A lot of theoretical and unwritten rules being thrown around in this thread... But there is one real world rule that is written down and enforced. No Power Drills in Wilderness areas. Let's not forget that rule... Nice discussion, glad to still it's still moving along, minus a few important voices... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Here's what I don't understand: If you worry about the environment to the point that you ride a bike, buy only fuel-efficient vehicles or use mass transport, voted for Gore, eschew farmed salmon, make donations to environmental PACs, and in the back of your mind you may even be considering a composting toilet.... ...how in the Hell could you possibly be in favor of defacing millions-of-years-old rock faces with bolt-holes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeezix Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Also toproping is for Mountaineers and gumbies. ..and for when you're stoned after dinner and want to goof around. I value a leave no trace standard for wilderness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Somebody should chop this new route on the Incredible hulk...bolts next to cracks! who would do such a thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted September 29, 2004 Author Share Posted September 29, 2004 Give details about the climb and the style in which it was put up. and when it was bolted. Before it was climbed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 you guys have way too much time on your hands, locked up at your desks dreaming about climbing... pretty pathetic if you ask me. go fucking climb something. this topic is so fucking boring. and one more thing- when you are sketched you will clip that bolt and you won't ask a question if it was bolted with power drill or not. climbing 5.11 or 5.12 is not climbing hard by modern standards. and for all of you bolt anti-bolt wankers why don't you visit places like Elbsanstein or Teplice. then you can spray how brave you are. other wise you're just another sprayer-wanker. T-A=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distel32 Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 there is something about me you might not know......I smoke crack..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Somebody should chop this new route on the Incredible hulk...bolts next to cracks! who would do such a thing? That corner seam looks really protectable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Somebody should chop this new route on the Incredible hulk...bolts next to cracks! who would do such a thing? This is what one of the questions I am trying to get at. A bolt is next to the crack. Maybe you can place pro in that crack, but somebody else doesn't believe in their abilities to trust the pro, so they probably placed the bolt. This happens quite frequently for where the bolts are placed (even though it is not kosher). This is why I question all bolting.....but then again, I am no big wall climber, I have never slept on a portaledge, and I will never sleep on a portaledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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