No criminal charges in Mt Hood accident?!

[Winter]

mattp -

 

As a plaintiffs' attorney I'm all for suing the trundlers. But, at the same time, litigation can generally screw up certain aspects of society. I've got enough worries having to deal with parking fees, climbing fees, rescue fees, permit fees, etc etc etc - I'm sick and tired of people regulating backcountry rec. The wilderness holds such a strong appeal, because it takes us all from the bullshit of everday life, including the American tort system. I like it that way.

[mattp]

I agree with you, Winter. I like to "get away" and one of the things that I like about climbing is the fact that there it does demand that each of us take responsibility for ourselves. And I believe that the "victims" on Mount Hood would have a very difficult time suing the bumbler, would you agree? Far from advocating bring the legal system into the wilderness, I am suggesting that for the most part the sport of mountain climbing takes us to a wilderness where the legal system is very slow to encroach. Compare climbing with other sports where risk is involved -- diving, race-car driving, you name it. I believe there are more rule and regulations, more policing, and generally more fees involved in those activities (I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions). But at the same time, I'm saying that to reject our tort system without having some alternative in mind is stylish perhaps but not well thought out.

[Attitude]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bug:

There seem to be some legal beagles out there. Fire away.

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Where is thelawgoddess when I need her.

 

Then when we're finished, she can answer these questions.

[Winter]

I think the alternative is to let the criminal system rule the land and leave a great majority of the tort system at the trailhead. We all accept the risk that some idiot (including ourselves) is going to kill us in the mountains.

 

But, nothing I say is all that well thought out. I'm really just pissed off 'cause I'm at my desk and ain't climbing.

[ILuvAliens]

When will people take responsibility for their own actions. If you go to the mountains and get a rock kicked down on your head, not pushed. Your fault. Blame yourself and smile. Gives me a hopeless felling that people feel a need to lie blame on everything.

[joekania]

It's telltale that after all this time, the Sheriff and local DA have come to the conclusion that they can't effectively prosecute someone and win the case in this situation. Their whole case would be lacking physical evidence, rely on the unreliable testimony of traumatized witnesses, and just think of the expert witnesses that may take the stand...

 

DA: So, Mr. Whittaker, your organization leads people up the most dangerous mountains on the continent with only a day's training. Is that what you consider adequate experience?

 

BL: Well...we DO send them up with highly trained and experienced guides, you know.

 

Next witness:

 

DA: You wear North Face and have the REI debit card, do you consider yourself an experienced climber?

 

Gaper: Yes, I've summitted Mt. Si four times now, with one descent in rain. And if those folks who died knew how to strap on crampons and use ice-axes with leashes, well they must have known exactly what they were doing.

 

The human element is all the prosecution would have to build on, and since no one was a witness to the events that caused the first climber in the domino chain to pop off the ice, there will always be a shadow of a doubt. Nearly everything brought as evidence will be speculation, and as this board constantly demonstrates, opinions vary widely among even the most experienced climbers. It's fun (or scary, depending which side you're sitting on) to think what a defense attorney might be able to do to a witness during cross-examination. And a jury of PEERS for climbers? Is it possible for such a thing to exist?

[Winter]

I think everyone has zeroeed in on the real issue: do we want climbing accidents in the courts? I'll say this ... the accident on Hood demonstrates how difficult it would be to resolve these issues in a court. The bottom line is that anytime you go anywhere in the mountains, you know a slide, rockfall, accident, gumby, pro guide or any other number of events or people could claim your life in a second.

 

I also think there is a real difference here between criminal and civil liability. Criminal laws do extend into the backcountry, but I don't think we have to assume that personal injury and negligence suits should be the norm or acceptable.