Alpinfox Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Long-winded Maybe I take the Leave-No-Trace ethic a little too seriously. So you pulled all the fixed gear on Liberty Crack to leave no trace of climbers? Tom, It would be fine with me if the fixed gear (a dozen pins and three pieces of other stuff) on LC disappeared. LC would really be Grade V if that happened. I'd say the bolts should stay though. There is actually a new kind of cam-like thing I saw recently that works in bolt holes, so perhaps if those things work well, we could pull all the bolts and just leave the holes on LC. That would be fine with me too. I understand that the holes are still a "trace of man", but they are much less so than bolts themselves. The goal doesn't need to be to completely eliminate the trace of previous passage, but to AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE leave the route/mountain in such a condition that a climber can at least entertain the fantasy in his/her mind that they are the first one to ever set foot on that spot. BTW: I have a different set of ethical standards re: bolting in "sport climbing" areas. Let's try to stick to the summit register issue here.... Stefan, Removing summit registers = censorship? Sorry man, but that is a ridiculous arguement. Libraries are a place where books are stored and loaned out to any curious person. (As an aside, there IS censorship at public libraries. Try to find Penthouse magazine the next time you visit a public library). Summits are quiet, holy places where (some) people go to meditate and be away from the trappings of man for a brief time. Written documents belong in one of these places and not the other. Is it "censorship" that we don't allow people to spraypaint grafitti on publicly owned buildings? Would a "sidewalk register" chained to a lightpole in downtown Seattle be accepted? Dwayner, While you are correct that most climbers don't carry spraypaint and chisels in their packs, some apparently do. Have you seen the pictures from Dishman in eastern WA? And I have seen plenty of names and crap scratched into summit rocks. Granted most of those times were on summits that did not require technical "climbing", but not always. Climbers do tend to be more respectful of wilderness than your average troop of yahoos. Summit registers aren't permanent installations, true, but they don't seem to be going anywhere either. Those shiny steel boxes will survive a nuclear strike, and they are often CHAINED to a rock, making them pretty difficult to remove. I'm glad I got ya'll fired up about this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue_morph Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 But its OK that the MountainEars can "unilaterally decide" to put a summit register on a particular peak? I don't think they get permission from the Park Service/Forest Service/BLM/climbers-in-general/etc before they drop those things off. Sure it would be cool to find a film canister summit register on a remote/seldom-climbed peak with only a couple of names on it, but I don't see ANY historical value, or any OTHER value, in having a register on Das Toof, or Forbidden Peak, or any other commonly visited peak in WA. I don't like seeing big metal cans with "MOUNTAINEERS" stamped on them in the wilderness. Thier apparent sense of ownership of mountains in this state pisses me off. Those fuckers should keep a personal journal or a summit log at their denmother's house if they feel the need to keep track of their mighty accomplishments. Occasionally someone actually writes something worth reading in a summit register, but for the most part it is lame chestbeating and a surregate pissing post. Maybe it keeps people from carving/spraypainting their name into/onto the rock - that's good obviously. I'm surprised I'm in the minority here. Maybe I take the Leave-No-Trace ethic a little too seriously. WWJMD? You come across as fairly arrogant. What's it to you if people continue a tradition in this area as well as around the world? I personally think its kind of fun to get to the top and open one of those things up and see some names I know, a funny story or two, and to marvel at how few or how many other people have summited that mountain lately. Its a TRADITION for crying out loud, if y'all don't like it, ignore it. I doubt you are such a purist that you have never left a rap sling or clipped a bolt. If you don't like those, you don't have to use them either. As to which mountains are bad-ass enough to justify a register, who is to judge? For you Forbidden is hardly a climb worthy of remembering, for someone else, they may feel a great sense of accomplishment at hiking up Mt Si. Is a record of this all historically important? Probably not but in the same sense that time capsules are interesting, this tradition also is interesting. In 100 years should climbers no longer feel like they accomplished anything simply because everything has been climbed by then? I would like to see this tradition continue. Please respect others and just pass the register by if you are not interested in them. P.S. How about a big metal can that says "Cascade Climbers.com" on it? Or maybe someone would just use it as a poop tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Time for me to weigh in on the matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graupel Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 I don't see why anyone should see it as such a big affront on your senses to encounter one. Most of the time, they are well buried in the summit cairn. For that matter, if registers offend you, do you knock summit cairns down? Do you remove all rappel slings? Do you do simul-rappels like they do in the Needles so that no anchors or slings are used on the summit? For that matter, what color is your tent? Some folks get upset about color pollution too. If you are running into a big box style register in most cases it is a popular summit. I find these considerably less objectionable than someone with their cell phone out shouting to their buddy in the city "Guess where I am?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Sure it would be cool to find a film canister summit register on a remote/seldom-climbed peak with only a couple of names on it, but I don't see ANY historical value, or any OTHER value, in having a register on Das Toof, or Forbidden Peak, or any other commonly visited peak in WA. I don't like seeing big metal cans with "MOUNTAINEERS" stamped on them in the wilderness. Thier apparent sense of ownership of mountains in this state pisses me off. Those fuckers should keep a personal journal or a summit log at their denmother's house if they feel the need to keep track of their mighty accomplishments. Sounds like your beef isn't against summit registers, but only against who placed them there. If Fred Beckey places a summit register, then it's cool. If the Mounties do it, then it is a crime against nature and your personal ethics. If Fred leaves a piton on route, it's cool. If the Mounties do it, it is another crime against nature and your ego. At least you're consistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 My beef is with trash and human impact in the mountains. If someone makes a first ascent of a mountain (be it Beckey 50 years ago or some MOUNTAINEER tomorrow) and they want to leave a SMALL and UNOBTRUSIVE token of their visit to the summit, that's fine with me. But do we need a forum for commemorating Joe Schmo's 54,744th visit to the top of "Mt.WeekendWarriorPeak"? Those summits are so abused as it is, it just adds insult to injury to have a big shiny metal box on top. Leaving GEAR on a route (necessary for the climb) is entirely different than leaving a summit register on a mountain. In this day and age, we can communicate significant climbing achievements through climbing journals and websites; we no longer need to leave our mark on a mountain to prove we climbed it. I find it surprising and ironic that I am being accused of egotism for advocating the removal of summit registers whose sole purpose (it seems to me) is to inflate egos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 In this day and age, we can communicate significant climbing achievements through climbing journals and websites; we no longer need to leave our mark on a mountain to prove we climbed it. Websites are far more transitory than registers, journals have publication requirements. What's worthwhile today may not be worthwhile tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 In this day and age, we can communicate significant climbing achievements through climbing journals and websites; we no longer need to leave our mark on a mountain to prove we climbed it. So you take at face value the claims of everyone posting on the internet and in print ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 In this day and age, we can communicate significant climbing achievements through climbing journals and websites; we no longer need to leave our mark on a mountain to prove we climbed it. So you take at face value the claims of everyone posting on the internet and in print ? Of course I don't. I wouldn't take it at face value if I read it in a summit register either. What is your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Stefan, Removing summit registers = censorship? Sorry man, but that is a ridiculous arguement. Libraries are a place where books are stored and loaned out to any curious person. (As an aside, there IS censorship at public libraries. Try to find Penthouse magazine the next time you visit a public library). Summits are quiet, holy places where (some) people go to meditate and be away from the trappings of man for a brief time. Written documents belong in one of these places and not the other. Is it "censorship" that we don't allow people to spraypaint grafitti on publicly owned buildings? Would a "sidewalk register" chained to a lightpole in downtown Seattle be accepted? It seems everytime I go to a library, they are quiet too. I bet some people go to libraries to meditate too. Reading a fictional book might be considered meditation to some people. Is it "censorship" that we don't allow people to spraypaint grafitti on publicly owned buildings? Not the same thing. People are not allowed to spray paint on public buildings. I think that is illegal. You make a ridiculous counterargument. A sidewalk register chained to a lightpole would be bad form (permanent), but an announcement of an upcoming band or a "Vote For ____ " on paper on a lightpole is good form (nonpermanent) and is widely accepted (except for the guys who have to climb the lightpoles for maintenance). Removing documentation that you deem objectionable for another person whether your reason is moral or political is censorship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Of course I don't. I wouldn't take it at face value if I read it in a summit register either. What is your point? Uh, someone had to get to the summit to write the name in the register? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 I find summit registers to be an unvaluable source of historical weather data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Of course I don't. I wouldn't take it at face value if I read it in a summit register either. What is your point? Uh, someone had to get to the summit to write the name in the register? Please refer to Dru's post above RE: folks signing summit registers with the names Peter Croft and Reinhold Messner and claiming blazing summit times... In the specific case of a contested first ascent, you are correct that a summit register or cairn would be absolute proof that someone had visited the summit. Mr. Cook should have left a register on the summit of "Denali". I find summit registers to be an unvaluable source of historical weather data. They ARE good for that aren't they? "Only the 12 of us Mountaineers on the summit today... beautiful blue skies... June 11, 2004". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS look in the register box. Often some kind bros will leave roach remnants of the in the box. You should treat this similar to the "penny tray" at a store...need one, take one; have one, leave one. I don't sign 'em, I rarely read em and then it's to see if some old schoolers signed it way back when. Sometimes the paper can come in handy though, like if you desparately need a rolling paper, fire starter, or TP. Much ado about nothing. Valuable historical record?...probably not in 99% of the cases. The few that I've read on reasonably accesible summits were typically boring to the point of tears. The common entry: " 10/25/01" Summitted at 11:45 with Bob Jones and Joe Smith. Fun climb. Weather is partly cloudy and 45 degrees. Will be back!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_the_Tool Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 I'd like to jump in here to Alpinfox's defense for a moment. Alpinfox and I are proudly working to remove some of the crap that you climbers leave about wherever you go. I have Alpinfox remove the stuff that's up high because I can't drive up there. Registers are for trailheads and fee stations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 I think someone oughta carry a whole bunch of those "NW forest pass required at trailhead" signs up on top of mailbox peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Alpinfaux: still painting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 its good to see alpinfox can get a rise out of klenke. maybe this thread will veer to discussing the "virtual summit register" of summitpose.com next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 People are not allowed to leave trash in public places. I think that is illegal. You make a ridiculous counterargument. A summit register chained to a boulder would be bad form (permanent), but a personal journal, website, or clubhouse register is good form (nonpermanent) and is widely accepted. Yes, exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 People are not allowed to leave trash in public places. I think that is illegal. You make a ridiculous counterargument. A summit register chained to a boulder would be bad form (permanent), but a personal journal, website, or clubhouse register is good form (nonpermanent) and is widely accepted. I have never seen a summit register chained to a boulder. I don't think I ever will either and I have never heard of such a thing. Every single summit register I have encountered and heard about is nonpermanent. So I still don't see the problem. I think I understand you see summit registers as trash because it is manmade, but you are trying to make the argument that being on top of a mountain should be "free" of all man stuff, which really does not work. I guess in your argument to be consistent then the road that got you to the base of the climb is trash too. As well as the gas you used but "left behind". The trails you used. But you seem to tolerate that level of trash probably becuase you could not control those levels of trash. I wonder how other mountaineers would feel if you removed their Tibetan prayer flags from the Chinese bolted frame on top of Mt. Everest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 When we lose a summit register, we lose a part of climbing history and community. As was said earlier, many of us only report our first ascents in the register. When registers get stolen, a part of climbing and lore of that particular peak are lost forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 if you are that concerned about your contribution to history being lost then report your FA somewhere other than in the summit register. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllYouCanEat Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Several registers in the goat rocks are gone now. A few years ago I was told that they were destroyed. I of course can't verify but if so, I don't understand why. A tiny box under a boulder seems very unobtrusive. I think any effort involved to purify ones experience could be better toiled in other arenas like mining, air pollution, and logging. If the log was some big monument with a pen and pedestal that would be different. From the poll, I can see most would agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 if you are that concerned about your contribution to history being lost then report your FA somewhere other than in the summit register. If you care about history, shouldn't you care when it disapears? Or is the contribution only valid if you spray about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 i guess i have seen so many old, stained, illegible, snaffle chewed or otherwise naturally destroyed summit registers that my viewpoint is is that these are not a good place to make the sole record of a first ascent if you really care about others knowing about it. and if you don't why bother to record it at all? summit registers are by nature a transient, ephemeral resource. i have enjoyed finding a few and even reading through some long winded ones. but it does not bother me to hear that they have gone missing or been removed either. its in the nature of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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