iain Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 I think Zenolith may have mentioned this a while back (months ago), but here is a UIAA note about marking your rope. I, for one, thought a marker was okay. Guess not. http://www.uiaa.ch/commissions/newsitem.asp?idnews=191 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 hell ya - dont buy the generic marker in the store ($0.69) buy the officially approved CE certified EDELRID ROPE MARKER for $25. the extra $24.31 goes to a very nice Edelrid sticker pasted over the generic label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawgoddess Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 just spend the extra $10 or so for a bipattern (or bicolor) rope. you'll ***LOVE*** the thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 7, 2002 Author Share Posted August 7, 2002 indeed, but there's a lot of us out there who can't do a 100 something dollar upgrade just to get the biweave stuff. I agree, they are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payaso Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 "The test results have shown a decrease of up to 50% of the rope strength" "It is not possible for the UIAA Safety Commission to test all markers that are commercially available and can be used for marking ropes. " So why don't they at least tell us what markers or conditions caused the 50% failure? WTF???? How could the amount of ink in a Sharpie on the outside of your rope weaken it? Maybe they used nail polish remover or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 7, 2002 Author Share Posted August 7, 2002 yes the notice generates a lot of fear and uncertainty w/o the specifics. I guess the chemical penetrates to the kern? I don't see how it would fail otherwise. I'd like to see the numbers, but I would think a UIAA test suite is legit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 I heard nail polish remover will disolve the ink, so you should all go out and remove your rope markings with it immediately! I'm shaking in my rock shoes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellemontagne Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Personally, I use a Blue Water rope pen (I believe it has soy ink). Of all the experts I have spoken to, they have said this marker should not be a problem. The biggest concern with using a permanent marker is that the manufacturers cannot guarantee the chemical composition in the marker. The folks at Sanford do have a model called TEC (Trace Element Control) whose composition is GUARANTEED and is safe for ropes. This TEC marker is exactly what PMI uses to mark the middle of their ropes. I investigated this issue considerably going so far as to write BD, PMI, BlueWater, and the UIAA, and I would be more than happy to post their responses in a separate post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellemontagne Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Response from Pit Schubert at the UIAA: Short answer - First of all: We - the UIAA Safety Commission - created yesterday a paper concerning rope marking which is enclosed. Second: A damaged rope by marking is not a big problem, because such a marked rope can not break in practice (only when tested on the test machine according to the standards, UIAA and EN (CEN)), such a marked rope can only break in practice when the two or three Centimeter (about one inch), which are marked, are placed over a sharp rock edge when the rope is loaded by a fall. The probability that this will happen is nearly zero. To give you an impression: Amongst German and Austrian climbers happened during the last 19 (!) years one - only one (!) rope failure by a fall, the rope failed because loaded over a sharp edge - once again: during the last 19 (!) years one (!) rope failer and this under the cirmcumstances of hundred thousends of falls each year (sport climbing). Once again: The probability that the two or three Centimeters will be loaded by a fall over a sharp rock edge is nearly zero. - So no fear against a rope failure, also when the rope is damaged by a marker - I worked out this and other knowledge about rope failures during 32 years, I made thousends of fall tests, but all this knowledge is not well known, only few experts are informed. - Best regards Pit Schubert (President of the UIAA Safety Commission) UIAA UNION INTERNATIONALE DES ASSOCIATIONS D’ALPINISME THE INTERNATIONAL MOUNTAINEERING AND CLIMBING FEDERATION Pit Schubert, President of the UIAA Safety Commission Erler Strasse 22, A-6342 Niederndorf / Austria TEL & FAX: 0043-5373-61365 e-mail: p.schubert@a1.net Notification concerning Rope Marking issued: April 2002 Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and by some rope manufacturers have shown that rope marking with liquids such as those provided by felt-tipped pens can be dangerous, even with those markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results showed a decrease up to approximately 50% of the rope strength, more correctly: of the energy absorption capacity of the rope (expressed by the number of falls in the standard test method in accordance with the European Standard EN 892). Therefore the UIAA Safety Commission warns against marking a rope with any substance that has not been specifically approved by the rope manufacturer of that rope. It is not possible for the UIAA Safety Commission to test all markers that are commercially available and can be used for marking ropes. Furthermore it would be impossible for the UIAA Safety Commission to keep such information up-to-date. In addition, the effect of any rope marker seems to vary with the make of rope. Hence, all the UIAA Safety Commission can do at the moment is to warn mountaineers and climbers. The UIAA Safety Commission will carry out further research into this problem to provide practical advice to climbers. Pit Schubert Neville McMillan Carlo Zanantoni President Vice President Technical Director Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellemontagne Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Response from Scott Newell at BlueWater Dear Tyler, I apologize for the delay in responding. I wanted to revisit this with the UIAA delegate and had to wait for his return to the office. I have attached the a document for your review. The product was a Sharpie. I have always told people not to use this pen for rope marking. The pen even has a warning "do not use on cloth" printed on the side. I have re conducted testing with other pens as well as the bW marker. Granted it may not be as dark or last as long as a Sharpie but it is safe to use. Keep in mind that many things can weaken a rope to some degree. Please feel free to contact me if you have further questions. Thanks for your e mail. Regards, Scott Newell MARKING OF ROPES That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen (made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance). In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test. Five unmarked samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8 falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News. Last year this topic re-appeared on the Internet as well as in Climbing and Rock & Ice. In both magazines the use of felt pens was recommended for the (middle) marking of ropes, while the Internet correspondence centered on the damage. The press, despite being told about the possible damage, did nothing about it. Among the users there was doubt about the sources of the information. Last year two rope manufacturers (Lanex and Mammut) and the German Alpine Club visited this problem again. Various samples of non-dry and superdry rope were tested using a variety of felt pens (Sharpie was not among them). Testing was done seven to 30 days after application. Reduction varied from zero to 50 % in the number of drops held. Superdry ropes generally had less capacity reduction than non-dry, possibly because the saturation was less. However, one particular rope sample had an insignificant increase in capacity for the non-dry rope, but a 35 % reduction for the superdry. This rope, by the way, was the only one, which did not have a reduction in capacity for both the non-dry and superdry sample. Middle markings, which come with a new rope and were applied by the manufacturer, are safe. Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application. Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary. There is no "standard" formula for the chemicals that are contained in the markers. The company has also stated that "Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use." The recommendation: do not mark your rope with any kind of felt pen. Water-soluble acrylic paints are apparently safe. No information is available how long they stay on. The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellemontagne Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Response from PMI: Sorry for the delay regarding you question. I have been busy collect information on the topic and I think you will be happy to know what I have found out. First and foremost let me start with the fact that PMI's black marked ropes have been thoroughly tested and are perfectly safe. Second, TEC Markers (by Sharpie) have also been thoroughly tested and are perfectly safe. *TEC stands for Trace Element Control It is true that some middle marked ropes have been tested and that they showed a decrease in the number of falls that could be taken. However that was true ONLY when the marked spot was positioned exactly at the bending point. A marked rope would NOT loose number of drops held if any other part of the rope was placed at the bending point. Please also note that a product containing PHENOL should not be used to mark your rope. It is know to damage nylon. Thanks, Wendy Wendy Grimes Sales and Service Manager Pigeon Mountain Industries wgrimes@pmirope.com 1-800-282-7673 ext. 269 [ 08-07-2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: bellemontagne ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Holy crap belle, You are a rope marking guru! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plexus Posted August 8, 2002 Share Posted August 8, 2002 Thanks guy with the fancy name for contacting the sources on this. I've got that info written down and will store it in the memory banks. Cheers to your work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.