JoshK Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 ...is a horrible thing and not a deterent at all, imho. Despite your views on the subject, check out this article. It's entirely possible that Indiana will execute an innocent man in two weeks. http://capwiz.com/ncadp/issues/alert/?alertid=6022046 "The state of Indiana is scheduled to execute Darnell Williams, a black man, July 9 for the 1986 murders on John and Henrietta Reese in Lake county. Mr. Williams’s case is unprecedented, as the trial prosecutor, trial judge, and four jurors have called for a new trial. " "A Columbia Law School study found 75% of Indiana’s capital sentence cases between 1973 and 1995 had “serious, reversible error.” Mr. Williams is listed as such a case. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotterdamerung Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I remember during some criminal justice classes I had a discussion in which it revealed that it takes an average of 16 million dollars in spurious litigation to actually carry the death penalty to fruition. Unless your name is Tim McVeigh then it was considerably less I imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I've heard similar discussions - that it can cost more to execute someone than to keep them in prison for life. Not sure what the actual evidence is on that, but ultimately it shouldn't be a purely fiscal cost/benefit type of decision. Personally, I'm not in favour of the death penalty. The fallibility of our criminal justice system when determining guilt or innocence is just one reason, but it's a big one. We stopped executing people in Canada back in the late 50s, I believe, although the death penalty stayed on the books until the early 70s. There was a program on the tube a few years back in which various people conceded that at least two of the last few men hanged were innocent. As far as the deterrent effect - it's questionable. Canada's murder rate had been rising slowly but steadily until the death penalty was abolished, at which point the murder rate started declining slowly but steadily. Something similar happened in a couple of Scandinavian countries. There are many other factors that may have contributed to those trends, so it's inconclusive, but it does call into question the idea that people won't commit murder out of fear of execution. I suspect most murders can be classified as "crimes of passion" of one kind or another, so the person commiting the murder probably isn't really thinking much about the possible consequences of their actions at the time. On the other hand, family gossip has it that a relative was the last man hanged for horse-rustling in Saskatchewan, so maybe I'm just nursing a grudge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Yeah, for financial reasons alone people should ditch the death penalty. What I don't understand is how so many Moral-Majority right-wingers are anti-abortion but pro-death penalty. The Pope's policy of anti-abortion and anti-death penalty makes a lot more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 The idea, with an ideal justice system, is that for a truly heinous crime, the culprit should be punished in the most severe manner available. To me, being put to death would be quite a punishment. So, you could argue that for certain crimes, the perpetrator should be put to death. Abortion is the killing of an unborn child (in some cases at least, gotta define 'child'). The child is innocent. The innocent should not be punished, so the innocent should not be killed, so the baby should not be killed, so the mother shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion. So here we go: death penalty is justifiable, abortion is not. Note that I'm just playing devil's advocate here, these are not necessarily my opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Right, Cracked, but if you are Christian, wouldn't you believe that God would punish the culprit in the Most severe manner available? So your only goal would be to keep the culprit from harming society any further, which is what life in prison will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Who says I'm Christian? Besides, killing him now will send him to Hell faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 The idea, with an ideal justice system, is that for a truly heinous crime, the culprit should be punished in the most severe manner available. To me, being put to death would be quite a punishment. So, you could argue that for certain crimes, the perpetrator should be put to death. A life of captivity would be infinitely worse to me than death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted June 24, 2004 Author Share Posted June 24, 2004 Gary, your point is exactly the one I always make. While I disagree with the pope on most things, I give the church credit for remaining constant on that issue. Studies show that ~15% of those put to death were later found innocent of the crime they were charged with. In a civilized society, the death of ONE innocent man is not worth the punishment to any number of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griz Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Sadam Hussien will probably get the death penalty... Do you oppose that? Some people deserve to be executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 That's a bad example. Killing Saddam would make him a martyr. But even other people who "deserve" to be killed -- I think we should draw a line and establish the moral high ground and say that we're not going to kill people as punishment. The purpose of "punishment" is: 1) To keep dangerous people away from harming society 2) To correct the behavior of people so they will not harm society in the future I do not think the purpose of punishment should be so that the victims can feel revenge. It seems sick and twisted to me for the relatives of a murder victim to feel solace or get a boner by watching the murderer fry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griz Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 If someone killed a member of my family then I would want a front row seat at the fuckers execution.Everyone is different... but that would be justice to me. Why should he get to live when he took the life of another and caused unmeasurable pain to other people who cared about the victim? Also, I don't see why SH is a bad example. If you are opposed to the death penalty then you should feel this guy has a right to live. That was my point. Your statement about being a martyr really has no bearing on what I was saying. I can't think of a more deserving pile of shit than that guy, ya know? As soon as that country gets better organized that guy's head will roll. It may make him a martyr to a small % but the vast majority will feel relief and satisfaction in his death and help that country heal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double_E Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 What I don't understand is how so many Moral-Majority right-wingers are anti-abortion but pro-death penalty. NOHHH shit.... one of the biggest hypocracies of modern times. I've always been pretty damn conflicted on the death penalty issue. Cuz like on the one hand, it sucks that so many innocents get falsely convicted and put to death by accident. And, looking at it on a purely humanistic level, it just plain stinks; isn't the US like the only modern, industrial democracy that still uses it? But on the other hand, on a resource level, it makes sense to just get rid of slimeballs who commit multiple murders or have tortured their victims or killed little children or little ol' ladies, etc. People like that are just wasting the air, food, and other precious resources that the rest of us need. The planet's getting crowded, fergodssake!! We need to rid it of creeps like that. There's also the monetary end of the resource argument, which according to some post(s) above is debatable ... but in my mind the $$ of it is irrelevant. Those who commit heinous, brutal, cold-blooded multiple murders are creatures which simply do not deserve food, air, or water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 The stats tell some pretty amazing things. You are WAY more likely to put to death if you kill a white woman regardless of your race. You WAY less likely to be put to death if you kill a black man. And your WAY more likely to be put to death if your a black man. I wish I could find a cite to those stats, but that's what I remember from crim law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griz Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I just play it safe and don't kill people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I just play it safe and don't kill people. Yeah, that seems to work pretty well for me, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 You are WAY more likely to put to death if you kill a white woman regardless of your race. You WAY less likely to be put to death if you kill a black man. Subconscious racism expressed in your syntax, Winter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Sadam Hussien will probably get the death penalty... Do you oppose that? Treason, and other political crimes are a different matter from murder, rape, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 This one is very easy for me. Some people deserve to be killed...the whiny kid on the airplane, the bitch on the cell phone in her SUV who almost mowed me down on my bike, the dickneck playing earth shaking bass in my parking lot at 2am on a Tuesday night....but seriously: 1. Some innocent people are executed. 2. It's cheaper for taxpayers to jail them for life. Two excellent reasons to retain the ABILITY to seek the death penalty, but to not actively seek it in most circumstances where it is available. Personally, I would rather check out of this earthly existence early courtesy of a lethal injection, rather than be ass raped by Bruno and Tiny for 30 years. I think life in prison is worse punishment than death. I don't oppose the death penalty, but the reality of our ligitious society and the obscene costs associated with it make my choice easy. Retain the right, but only use it in rare cases like McVeigh/Nichols, John Allen Mohammed/Lee Malvo, etc. FWIW, I also am very much in support of prison work farms. The prison system should be self-sufficient on food at a minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Let's get on with it... Mumia Abu Jamal Leonard Peltier Cause' left celebs. Both guilty. Both should die. Oh yea, the Rosenbergs deserved the death penalty they received so long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Let's get on with it... Mumia Abu Jamal Not that long ago I put up "Fry Mumia" posters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double_E Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I didn't know that anyone outside of Olympia had ever heard of Mumia Abu Jamal... oh wait.. Tacoma. I guess there's an Evergreen College campus there too right? so tell me something FW: have you actually followed the court cases of Mumia Abu Jamal or Leonard Peltier enuf to actually make a rational judgement like that, ... or are you simply sick and tired of all the lefties, especially the hairy hippy lefties, who've made them poster-children for racial justice issues? cause I personally did get sick and tired hearing about Mumia ALL THE TIME, EVERYWHERE, FOR SEVEN FUCKIN YEARS STRAIGHT THAT I LIVED IN OLYMPIA!!! .... but I must admit I haven't followed either's court case nearly enuf to make a decision whether they're guilty or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Both cases were decided in court, by juries.. and a judge who passed sentence. Both have been appealed ad nauseam. What you or I think is not really important, but the fact that a vocal left-wing minority has been allowed to pre-empt justice is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redoubt Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 What I don't understand is how so many Moral-Majority right-wingers are anti-abortion but pro-death penalty. NOHHH shit.... one of the biggest hypocracies of modern times. Yeah, how can anyone be AGAINST offing an innocent fetus and FOR frying someone who rapes and murders a 12-year old? Incredible! Definitely "one of the biggest hypocracies of modern times." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 You are WAY more likely to put to death if you kill a white woman regardless of your race. You WAY less likely to be put to death if you kill a black man. Subconscious racism expressed in your syntax, Winter? You bore me. Avoid the facts, insult people, make stupid comments. Blah blah blah. Thank god there are lots of people like you in the Republican party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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