AlpineK Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 So we did some climbing at Mt Erie today. I lead a pitch that ended up at a ledge with this cool half dead juniper. Instead of tying off the tree I clipped a nice new set of bolts. In my view the bolted station is reducing the impact of humans on this tree. There's such a big deal placed on how bolts screw up the rock, but all things considered these bolts are actually improving the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 There's such a big deal placed on how bolts screw up the rock, but all things considered these bolts are actually improving the environment. If you want an extreme example of the damage climbers do to trees climb at Carderock Maryland. 50+years of after work climbing have killed just about every tree within 30ft of the cliftops. And the ones not yet dead are soon to be dead. Ugh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDoolittle Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 If no mention is made of the mining processes required to extract the ores from the ground, or the mining processes required to extract the coal required for smelting and forging the steel, or the oil extraction and refining processes required to create the oil to ship the bolts, sure, bolts are great for the environment. Unless you're free-soloing barefoot, any type of climbing is most certainly BAD for the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted April 19, 2004 Author Share Posted April 19, 2004 I kind of think that the damage bolts do to rock has a minimal environmental impact compared to the damage climbers do to cliffside vegitation. I know we've discussed this before, and I know that vegitation moves back into an areas on the west side that climbers neglect, but an old stunted tree like the one I'm talking about would take hundereds of years to regrow and get all funky and cool looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 damage climbers do to cliffside vegitation. It's this kind of damage that comes quickly to resource managers attention, as well as the general public. Doolittle - if your going to rant about resource extraction - look into what goes into the 'puter your typing this on. That's a HELL of alot more nasty & toxic than a bolt. Or look at a cellphone, or a car,... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I still see people rappelling from trees in the Icicle by putting their ropes directly around the tree without slings. Happens all the time at Alphabet Rock. They rap even when there is an easy walkoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 damage climbers do to cliffside vegitation. It's this kind of damage that comes quickly to resource managers attention, as well as the general public. Doolittle - if your going to rant about resource extraction - look into what goes into the 'puter your typing this on. That's a HELL of alot more nasty & toxic than a bolt. Or look at a cellphone, or a car,... He's a nincompoop. Pay him no mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I still see people rappelling from trees in the Icicle by putting their ropes directly around the tree without slings. Happens all the time at Alphabet Rock. They rap even when there is an easy walkoff. Why don't you just say, "Hey, Jackass: we don't do that around here."? What else does one see at Alphabet Rock? Perhaps a long-standing top-rope problem which has been bolted, given a name ("Hind Quarters") and two stars in Kramar's guide. This is really pathetic. I agree that it's harmful to rap off a tree without slinging it first, but does one dubious practice justify another? Aren't you just looking for ways to justify the unfortunate direction that climbing is going? And now that you bring it up, I've been examining Viktor's Leavenworth guide lately (mostly while sitting on the pot) and I noticed that the Regular Route on Careno Crag has been revised to include the bolts which used to be a (shameful) variation on the first pitch. This is no longer advertised as a variation....IT IS THE REGULAR ROUTE! Furthermore, Viktor gives a controversial route like Condorphamine Wankulation about ten stars! This might be the first guide book I've read that has absoutely zero discussion about ethical considerations in the opening pages. Why? Could it be that there are no ethics in L-town these days? Ol' Viktor's even got a route he put up called "Boltering". I just had to come out of retirement on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 So exactly how much harm does it do to a tree if you rap off it with just a rope and not a sling? I sling trees cause I don't like bark ground into my rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 .... but an old stunted tree like the one I'm talking about would take hundereds of years to regrow and get all funky and cool looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted April 19, 2004 Author Share Posted April 19, 2004 Chuck...you don't have to be on drugs to appreciate cool looking trees. Poop. You've missed my point which is that destruction of vegetation is in many cases worse for the overall environment than bolting. It takes hundreds of years for soil to form and build up on ledges and cracks, and it takes longer for bonsai trees to grow. In the same time period I bet the natural weathering processes that effect rock will remove most if not all traces of bolting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 So exactly how much harm does it do to a tree if you rap off it with just a rope and not a sling? I sling trees cause I don't like bark ground into my rope. Jake, the harm done depends on the size of the tree. If it is a small tree, pulling one rope could cut through the bark enough to harm it. If it is a large tree, as at Alphabet Rock, it might take hundreds or thousands of pulls. You can see multiple grooves in the bark of that tree. I don't think people should ever get in the habit of putting the rope directly around a tree, even if it is a big tree with thick bark. It's bad for the rope, bad for the tree, and just plain lazy, poor ethics. Pope, I DID say something to the guy. He just didn't know any better. No one had ever told him it was not a good thing to do. I let him rap off using my rope from anchor of that retrobolted top-rope route to the right- the one you mentioned. AlpineK, give yourself a pat on the back from bringing Pope out of retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Catbird- I disagree with your statement of "ethics" in a big way. In my opinion, a major way that we as crag climbers affect other users out there is through the littering of slings all over the place. They can be seen from as much as a quarter mile away. I believe this has even been a reason for area closures in the past. In a crag climbing environment, if you are "setting up" a rappel where others may use it, it is probably a good idea to put a sling on the tree. Add two rappel rings if you can, and preferably extra large ones so that cautious climbers don't freak out and so that when everybody and their dog feels compelled to stuff 25 slings in there it can accomodate that wad of garbage. (If you come upon said wad, please remove all but the three best looking slings, but the fact is most climbers feel compelled to strew their slings all about without regard for visual impact so that's just the way it is.) If you are going to rappel once, in a spot where you don't expect other parties to use the same tree repeatedly, DO NOT put a sling on it. Please. And please don't carry brightly colored slings around for this purpose. Get grey webbing or olive green. In the mountains, different considerations apply. At the crags, visual impact is a much bigber deal. -Mattp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Matt, I think you misunderstand me "in a big way". In the previous example, people put slings around the tree to top-rope Dogleg Crack. They generally remove them when they are done and walk off. I no longer carry brightly colored slings for raps, only black or olive drab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 This might be the first guide book I've read that has absoutely zero discussion about ethical considerations in the opening pages. Why? Could it be that there are no ethics in L-town these days? And just whose ethical considerations should we all read about? VK's? Mine? Yours? They would all be different and just give "extremists" something else to bitch about. Why should he set himself up for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Haven't we been through all this before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I've just been informed that my comments are entirely out of line and to respond to any of your questions will likely result in the rebanning of Pope. I think I'm going back into voluntary retirement again since the degree of lameness around here hasn't diminished by even a proper fraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I don't agree with Pope much, but banning for the above posts is quite lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distel32 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I think it may have been to remarks on the guide and Viktor, especially for all the work he has done and good things he has provided for the climbing community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Somewhere beneath your personal insults you may have a point, but it sure is difficult to distinguish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Hey... One point for Pope is that bolting a multipitch route into a "chicken" route WILL increase traffic to said route...increasing traffic will affect trails, parking, littering, etc. Necessary evil or not, is another question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 RuMR, Your point is valid, but nowhere in Pope's post can I come up with what you stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 No question about it, RuMR. Sport-bolted climbing draws more climbers than traditional climbing. A sport climbing area, near the road, draws way more poeple and their dogs than does Condor, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 RuMR, Your point is valid, but nowhere in Pope's post can I come up with what you stated. Archie Bunker kinda gets owly when the word BOLT is in front of him...he sometimes loses coherence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirp Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Time for a pic...too much text makes us so grumpy!! Freshies from SE King county!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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