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dberdinka

New Route Ethics in Leavenworth

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I will of course teach anyone who wants to learn. My wife forbids me from taking females out by themselves but find a willing partner and let's go. Single males don't seem to bother her. One project I kind of had a weird inclination to do was Town Crier with a bivouc on one of the ledges. This is a 5.9 C2 route perfect for teaching a wide variety of trad skills and big wall techniques. It is not a big wall so that makes it that much more reasonable. But any route at Index is worth considering. I used to lead 5.12 trad. You won't beleive it anymore so don't worry about being sandbagged. I'm willing to start on the slabs. If you are trying hard we should be able to do a 5.9 by the end of the day.

PM me if you are interested.

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D, I am on your side. What I fear is over regulation, mandatory guides, a license to climb, and other such non fun things... I think over bolting is yucky and have a project for anyone who wants it (here in oregon) I am not a trad climber yet, but I do prefer to follow trad. Although i do enjoy clipping bolts as well. But I think that sport climbing has it's place. I CAN"T SAY THIS ENOUGH!!!!! I AGREE WITH YOU> I guess in my idealistic brain I just wish that all people that went to the mountains would be so kind as to take their trash with them, And leave well enough alone as far as climbs where you can protect.

 

As far as weather someone is right or not about the toy, usualy no. We have very few toys that belong to one child or the other. Very comunal here [Wink]

 

[ 06-17-2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: sk ]

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This should generate a bit of controversy from you bolt-happy little pussies. Get this. Bolting is for fags. Back East, if we couldn't climb a pitch free and clean, we just didn't try to protect it! John Bouchard used to put up 5.10 routes with bat hooks for pro! When I moved out west and saw the proliferation of bolts next to natural fetures I knew that I was dealing with an inferior grade of climber. Hey, you guys may think that your hard but as far as I'm concerned, it's all talk. Oooo! bolt me up another crack at Index and call me a hard man! Where did I put the BOSCH anyway?

jfd

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Dwayner -

 

I will assume it's the jet lag talking as your response was so pitiful but also revealing. You evidently see no reason to enter into a friendly discussion but would rather just be "noise" to use your own words. Glad you are finally admitting what I have said all along: you are just full of senseless chatter. Now you admit the strategy - make noise, make a fuss and hey - "the man" will come in on your side. How can you loose? Poor Pitiful Professor I don't argue that its been ineffective but rather its of neglible efficacy when compared to the more congenial alternatives. While not a "pop pyschologist" either by vocation or recreation, I would hazard that your "noise" is reflective of a parsimony of spirit and would suggest that over time being negative is harder than being constructive.

 

Since the DDD thread what has happened? Well? Sounds like some are claiming quite alot! And it's not what you wanted.

 

Well I am off to the climbing gym got to beat the crowds you know!

 

Still have a hug for you Dwayner.

 

Come and get it. [Roll Eyes]

 

PP

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Quote from PeterPuget "Am I correct in concluding that this is a indirect way of saying that Viktor is a crack bolter. If so, have you discussed this issue with him. What was his response? If not why slam him publicly without first giving him the courtesy of a direct discussion?"

Fine I personally did not discuss this issue with Viktor...I do plan too. However, the reason I stated this is because during my ascent of a particular route near Weiner and Leaner on Icicle buttress (the same route dberdinka refers too)...I was told the reason the crack was bolted was due to the flakey (chossy) nature of the crack. Viktor and company did not feel it was safe nor would the rock hold a fall on a piece...having climbed the route I disagree. Yes it would be hard to protect because the crack is fairly steep and angles rightward with a good lieback edge on the downside of the fissure but, with a little creativity one could prevail. The crack does continue rightward but the bolts continue straight up into slab heaven which does have one tricky move exiting the crack system and then lots of smearing and typical icicle slab moves...not amazingly stellar...but fun moves on the short crack section.

All in all the route is not a continous crack pitch (since it continues up instead of rightward) but the reality is there are bolts near a crack something that is considered by Viktor himself as a no no (which he has more or less stated to me in the past just not in those exact words...it was a while ago) Other bolted routes between Crude Buddah and Poison Ivy crack (Purina Crag--black water streaked rock) have also appeared recently...my friend climbed them and was appaled to find many large and small cam placements near bolts (I think he has subsequently gone back and climbed with gear). Projects in the vicinity proteus and speckled gums (near spaghetti sauce)on IB have been incorrectly stated as retro bolt-jobs to old routes...I looked at them today...and they appeared like legitimate sport climbs--whoevers they be.

Just like bouldering, sport climbing is a form of rock climbing...I love to participate in all forms or climbing including these mediums. My concern is some climbers have lost the vision of why they continue to climb which for me is to be scared, cheat gravity and climb all those gifts of nature. Cracks are natural, uncontrived lines... face climbs are the first ascentionists choice of where to bolt...a contrivance. The point I was trying to get across is bolts do not need to be near cracks no matter how big or if they go the wrong way...i don't understand why they are now becoming more prevalent. [Confused]

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quote:

Originally posted by ajosephfd:

This should generate a bit of controversy from you bolt-happy little pussies.

jfd

Not unless your opinion matters. [sleep]

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quote:

Originally posted by Dwayner:

What a ridiculous cliché! Guess what! Making a loud noise about an issue is a form of action. Talk to your buddies at Green Peace, Earth First, Act Up, etc. It is perfectly obvious that not everybody seems to understand that bolting is an issue. Some of us choose to call attention to our side of the issue by being in-your-face and noisy. You may argue that it’s ineffective, but I disagree. Individuals might at least think twice before they drill that bolt next to a crack, etc. and I know there are some new and genuine converts to clean climbing as a result of our ranting.


Right on! Keep believing that, and by all means keep on ranting! What the Taliban did for Islam, you can do for the anti-bolting contingent! Who else could take a postition that might possibly resonate with the vast majority of climbers who clip bolts and make it a truly marginal crusade that only appeals to a dwindling number of fringe dwelling zealots! Bravo!

 

Actually, I agree that most climbers aren't aware of the fact that there are ethical considerations that they should take into account before placing bolts in the rock, and that more should be done to promote awareness of this issue. However, until you tone down the rhetoric, attempt to build consensus on this issue through a judicious compromise or two, and/or advocate sensible restraints on bolting instead of an outright ban, the only thing that your ranting will get from the vast majority of climbers that you have effectively alienated from your cause is a good chuckle or a dismissive shrug.

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Szy -

Thanks for your reply. I don't really know Viktor but in our few passing interactions he seemed like a nice guy. I am not for the needless bolting of cracks either. I get tired of the antibolter particularly the noisemakers making all kinds of BS assunptions regarding peoples motivations and just spewing forth invective. Was the route bolted to sell more books or is there a less sinister explanation? Does it really matter? Sending him an email and explaing your point of view seems far more productive than watching the noise flare up - particularly if one side has already tuned out. You want to know why they are becoming more prevelant - find out who is doing it and asking them.

 

Dwayner -

Ouch!

 

PP

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Puget,

Do you stand for anything? You produce a lot of words, but as far as I can tell you have not taken a solid position on any issue other than you want a hug from Dwayner. [Wazzup]

 

No. I do not want a hug either.

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A few words for Brother JayB:

 

"Right on! Keep believing that, and by all means keep on ranting! What the Taliban did for Islam, you can do for the anti-bolting contingent! Who else could take a postition that might possibly resonate with the vast majority of climbers who clip bolts and make it a truly marginal crusade that only appeals to a dwindling number of fringe dwelling zealots! Bravo!"

 

Dude! Don't you think it's a bit much comparing fervent anti-bolting views with the Taliban? One oppresses and murders people and is associated with a major world religion. The other is a viewpoint about a an activity [climbing] which in the big picture is a generally selfish and meaningless pursuit and the product of a leisure society. I would disagree that views that advocate bolting restraint are marginal...in fact, I think they are growing, and even if the viewpoints were held only by a minority, does that invalidate them?

 

"Actually, I agree that most climbers aren't aware of the fact that there are ethical considerations that they should take into account before placing bolts in the rock, and that more should be done to promote awareness of this issue."

 

See, we do agree.

 

"However, until you tone down the rhetoric, attempt to build consensus on this issue through a judicious compromise or two, and/or advocate sensible restraints on bolting instead of an outright ban, the only thing that your ranting will get from the vast majority of climbers that you have effectively alienated from your cause is a good chuckle or a dismissive shrug."

 

Dude! You obviously are not familiar with my viewpoints. I don't want to ban bolting. Bolts have their place, but they should be rare. They should be the exception rather than the rule. (In sport-climbing, unfortunately, they are the rule.) Given their permanence, each bolt should be an ethical decision and they should be used with the utmost restraint. And yes, by this definition, the majority of sport climbs, in my opinion, are illegitimate. Am I stopping anyone from sport-climbing? No. I hope, though, by my style of advocacy or yours, that someday sport-climbing will be perceived in the history of climbing as a brief, conceited, self-indulgent period between the acknowledgement of a need for a clean-climbing ethic (in the 70's) and a new enlightment that once again sees climbing in a "leave as few traces as possible" ethic. By the way, I don't know where you get your statistics regarding "the vast majority of climbers that you have effectively alienated from your cause." I don't think even a small minority of climbers have ever heard of me or read cc.com.

 

Anyway...carry on, and have a beer: [big Drink]

 

- Dwayner

I'll have one too. [big Drink]

 

[ 06-17-2002, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Dwayner ]

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quote:

Originally posted by JayB:

However, until you tone down the rhetoric, attempt to build consensus on this issue through a judicious compromise or two, and/or advocate sensible restraints on bolting instead of an outright ban, the only thing that your ranting will get from the vast majority of climbers that you have effectively alienated from your cause is a good chuckle or a dismissive shrug.

Jay,

 

I think consensus is overrated. For an example of what misguided consensus can build, check out the pile called Vantage. I don't wish to nurture tolerance and understanding for the deposition of trashy fixed hardware in the name of facilitating cowardice. The fact is, I can and do enjoy an enormous amount of rock climbing in which I do not rely on unsightly and alien fixed gear, and so if the installation of fixed anchors were banned, it could only improve the crag scene (by thinning out the whirlies).

 

Don't you find it alarming that in this thread climbers are voicing disapproval of bolting next to cracks? Why are we even wrestling with this question? Some things just shouldn't be tolerated. What's next, a discussion on the merits of chipping?

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Let me get a list of my own memory and I wil ask a few other people and I will get back to you tomorrow. I promise.

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quote:

Originally posted by ajosephfd:

Get this. Bolting is for fags.

Aw jeez. Get a real argument. [sleep]

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Ah Pope as usual you miss the point big time! Here is a quote:"Don't you find it alarming that in this thread climbers are voicing disapproval of bolting next to cracks? Why are we even wrestling with this question?" No one here is advocating bolting next to cracks. There is no wrestling. Mostly the discussion is about finding ways discover why it is happeneing and put an end to it. There really was no question about the properness of bolting cracks. The wrestling has more to do with how to prevent such behavior. Had a pro crack bolter actually shown up advocating his/her beliefs then you might be right.

 

At first one poster declared a crack bolted for the express purpose of selling guides. Later it was deemed merely a matter of poor judgement despite the good intentions of the FA party. Other routes claimed to be poorly bolted were later declared valid sport climbs. Some others were called poorly bolted. Oh how the facts have twisted around. Yet they are important because they do indeed impact how someone might initiate a discussion with the bolters or even how one would frame the discussion in a public enviroment.

 

Of course you first raise that most "noisey" of claims - sport climbers are cowards. What a canard.

 

I think that most climbers do in fact have an awareness that some people do not like bolts. I also think that most have come to a different conclusion as to the vileness of bolt than you and Dwayner. To think that you are opening others eyes to the "bolt debate" is such a pompous charade. Although if you do indeed hold such a view then it is obvious that you must view others with the utmost contempt. Come to think of it Pope you have already expressly admitted that. Your collective views are neither new, unique, or insightful.

 

Keeping my hug to myself this time. [Eek!]

 

PP

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quote:

Originally posted by Crackbolter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bug:

I got a crowbar for father's day. I'm going to Leavenworth this weekend. Anyone have a hit list?

Plenty of rap anchors that need replacing. Ask Dru if he will go out and use his new-used drill to help out.

I use my drill to violently assault sportclimbers. Live by the sword die by the sword motherfucker!

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When I went down to Dragontail a few weeks back Viktor gave us an alpine pipe and a big chunk to take into Colchuck with us. Ray's female bought me breakfasst. Does that mean I got friends on both sides or what [Wink]

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quote:

Originally posted by glen:

So far, the best tool I've come across for pulling bolts is a ball joint adjuster and a hammer. Looks like a tuning fork, but wedged at the end of the tongs. Waaaay better than a crowbar. No bolt can resist.

I did a little google searching and came up with a tie rod separator. It looks the same, but the space between the forks is closer to 3/4" as opposed to 1" for a ball joint separator. At roughly the price of a nut tool, every climber should have one (,especially those that are bolting "faster than their neurons can fire.") Now I'm going shopping and then I have a little work to do. I'll let y'all know how things work.

 

Talk is great. But talk is just talk. If nothing changes, then nothing changes.

 

The great majority of climbers know that bolts do not belong where natural protection will protect the climber.

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PP,

 

I think maybe the bolt on the top of the Rogers Corner slab needs replacing but it isn't necessary since everyone skips it.

 

This is the only crag that I think even has rusty spinners so close to the road.

 

As crusty as Leavenworth is, it seems to be okay.

 

Vantage could use more bolts. Or replace Winter Walk bolts.

 

Peshastin could use some chopping, so no one climbs there again. Not that I am proposing that someone should actually go out there with a crowbar.

 

If you have a crowbar and a drill you are probably a selfish, power hungry, Generation X'er who just wants to grid bolt everything into oblivion and probably just wants to to place bolts next to natural gear placements so you don't have to lug your heavy rack everywhere.

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quote:

Originally posted by Crackbolter:

If you have a crowbar and a drill you are probably a selfish, power hungry, Generation X'er who just wants to grid bolt everything into oblivion...

You contradict yourself Cracklicker. Whatever miniscule shred of credibility (debateable) you might have had just went out the window. I don't know you, but the above statement from your post tells me that you are one of those crusty fuckers that sit and bitch because people in different generation aren't just like them [Mad] . Go ahead and hate the X Generation (or 13th Generation) for not revering you like the god you think you are in your own mind, but kiss this, assclown. [Moon]

 

Greg

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Greg:

 

I was under the impression he was joking, but sarcasm comes through so poorly in this medium. Thats tough, because it is one of my favorite ways of being snide. It seemed to me that CB was pretending to be Harmon for that paragraph, but that may be only because I have contemplated that sort of retort myself. On the otherhand, I may be completely misinterpreting, and your response may be spot on. Danged modern world.

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