Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
MrDoolittle

Winning Hearts & Minds Pt.371

Recommended Posts

OW emailed me and asked me my take on the comment made by J_B and quoted from an article from somewhere.

 

There are alot of cowboys as we call them in Iraq who are providing security to civilian workers there. Not all of them are bad, but like a team these small PSD's (personal security detachments or details) are only as good as their weakest member. Some of these guys have watched too much TV, and it shows.

 

Other companies are taking only former SOF (Special Ops) soldiers with at least 10 years of SOF experience or SWAT level police officers. The reputable companies have DoD and Agency (CIA) contracts and all IC's (Independent Contractors) are required to go through rigorous background investigations and screening processes.

 

The guys that were killed in Fallujah today were probably friends of mine and work for the same company that I do. We have many DoD and CIA contracts and have had many instances of contact, injury, and collateral damage. These are the first casualties for Blackwater, but there is a saying we had..."It's not a matter of IF, but WHEN". When is now....

I am waiting to find out if now if I knew them, but I think I must since we are a small outfit.

 

We are taking too soft of an approach to Iraq. Arabs respect strength and glorify violence. We are the most powerful soldiers on this planet. I for one plan on bringing some pain to some Iraqi's this time around and I do not care really if they suffer for the rest of eternity. Now it's personal. Unfortunately I am not in Fallujah very often.

 

Ya know that little bit in Lord of the Rings where Gollum is struggling with his own inner demons and all he keep saying slowly to himself is M-U-R-D-E-R-E-R....well that's how I feel now knowing those fucking dirty Haji's did that to my friends. Someone is going to die for it. That's the reality of that place and this conflict. It is going to get ugly and dirty and then we are going to have to try to come home and pretend like nothing happened to us and walk around places like Ashland and laugh like all the hippies around here.

 

If you want to win a heart or mind find a Vietnam Veteran tomorrow and tell them sorry for all the shit they had to endure both in Vietnam and after they came home. Tell them you appreciate the sacrifice they made and that you feel your world is somehow a better place for their blind devotion to this country. Don't let that kind of isolation ever happen to another veteran or "mercenary" as we are being called these days. I think about home every day I am over there and I worry about dying every day I am over there. Like you, I just want to climb mountains and ski steep snow and listen to the wind. This is just what many of us feel compelled to do right now.

 

That's all I have to say for this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tele_nut thumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gif Stay safe.

 

j_b thumbs_down.gif Your description of tele as a "mercenary" was a way out of line...but I'm rarely surprised by your anti-everything/everyone-American tripe. The story/interview was OK. Thankyou for posting the raw link, versus the standard "click here". I refuse to link to an undescribed site from the left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

drop the tar and feathers dude. both your capacity of observation and your reading comprehension are letting you down. a) the introduction to the link is straight off the democracy now website and b) nowhere in said intro does anyone describes tele_nut as a mercenary (you don't think they personally know tele_nut, do you?).

 

the interesting part though is that you make that connection. hm ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"AMY GOODMAN: That's very, very good. Robert, you have been writing about an army of thousands of mercenaries that have been appearing in Iraq's major cities many of them former British and U.S. soldiers hired by the occupying authorities, Anglo-American authorities, and by dozens of companies."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you overreact Fairweather, J_B wasn't talking about Tele_Nut, I was the one who read the full interview and realized that Tele_Nut's job was within the scope of private security forces being discussed and asked him for his take on it. Fisk noted that some were yahoos and some were professionals, and I didn't think that the US ex-military types were the scary ones, but rather some of the others of other national origins. South Africans hired to be private security? That sounds like mercenary to me. Besides, the term is not necessarily a slur, it's just someone not directly involved in the conflict hired to serve on one side or the other. I also thought that the Fisk interview offered a rather more nuanced appreciation of the situation there, a different thing than the distant ignorance Tele_Nut said was his experience with US media reporting on the conflict in a country he had spent a lot of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OW emailed me and asked me my take on the comment made by J_B and quoted from an article from somewhere.

 

There are alot of cowboys as we call them in Iraq who are providing security to civilian workers there. Not all of them are bad, but like a team these small PSD's (personal security detachments or details) are only as good as their weakest member. Some of these guys have watched too much TV, and it shows.

 

Other companies are taking only former SOF (Special Ops) soldiers with at least 10 years of SOF experience or SWAT level police officers. The reputable companies have DoD and Agency (CIA) contracts and all IC's (Independent Contractors) are required to go through rigorous background investigations and screening processes.

 

The guys that were killed in Fallujah today were probably friends of mine and work for the same company that I do. We have many DoD and CIA contracts and have had many instances of contact, injury, and collateral damage. These are the first casualties for Blackwater, but there is a saying we had..."It's not a matter of IF, but WHEN". When is now....

I am waiting to find out if now if I knew them, but I think I must since we are a small outfit.

 

We are taking too soft of an approach to Iraq. Arabs respect strength and glorify violence. We are the most powerful soldiers on this planet. I for one plan on bringing some pain to some Iraqi's this time around and I do not care really if they suffer for the rest of eternity. Now it's personal. Unfortunately I am not in Fallujah very often.

 

Ya know that little bit in Lord of the Rings where Gollum is struggling with his own inner demons and all he keep saying slowly to himself is M-U-R-D-E-R-E-R....well that's how I feel now knowing those fucking dirty Haji's did that to my friends. Someone is going to die for it. That's the reality of that place and this conflict. It is going to get ugly and dirty and then we are going to have to try to come home and pretend like nothing happened to us and walk around places like Ashland and laugh like all the hippies around here.

 

If you want to win a heart or mind find a Vietnam Veteran tomorrow and tell them sorry for all the shit they had to endure both in Vietnam and after they came home. Tell them you appreciate the sacrifice they made and that you feel your world is somehow a better place for their blind devotion to this country. Don't let that kind of isolation ever happen to another veteran or "mercenary" as we are being called these days. I think about home every day I am over there and I worry about dying every day I am over there. Like you, I just want to climb mountains and ski steep snow and listen to the wind. This is just what many of us feel compelled to do right now.

 

That's all I have to say for this thread.

Telle_nut... I know for a fact that you are apriciated for what you do. Thank you for your strength and deveotion. You know that form my percpective, I am greatful there are yous that are willing to do what you do, so there can be me's that don't. I am so sorry for the loss of your frineds. My heart is with you. Keep your fucking head down so you can haul your ass home to your beutiful wife and participate in the teach Muffy to ski years to follow. There is no way that I can ever understand what it is you do or how it is that you can do it. thank you. and if I ever catch you pretending to be other than who and what you are with me I will be truely offended.

 

Muffy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
drop the tar and feathers dude. both your capacity of observation and your reading comprehension are letting you down. a) the introduction to the link is straight off the democracy now website and b) nowhere in said intro does anyone describes tele_nut as a mercenary (you don't think they personally know tele_nut, do you?).

 

the interesting part though is that you make that connection. hm ...

 

Actually, my thanks for the raw link was sincere, but I know your narrow mind is probably incapable of expressing both praise and contempt for the same person...or understanding how such could be directed at you. Your world view contaminates your view of the individual.

 

As for the mercenary statement, I believe your intent was clear in your first post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
your narrow mind

 

that's rich coming from you yelrotflmao.gif war is peace, dude!

 

As for the mercenary statement, I believe your intent was clear in your first post.

 

what is clear is that you can't support your initial statement. wave.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

\Mer"ce*na*ry\, a. [OE. mercenarie, F. mercenaire, fr.

L. mercenarius, fr. merces wages, reward. See {Mercy}.]

1. Acting for reward; serving for pay; paid; hired; hireling;

venal; as, mercenary soldiers.

 

2. Hence: Moved by considerations of pay or profit; greedy of

gain; sordid; selfish. --Shak.

 

For God forbid I should my papers blot With

mercenary lines, with servile pen. --Daniel.

 

Syn: See {Venal}.

 

 

\Mer"ce*na*ry\, n.; pl. {Mercenaries}.

One who is hired; a hireling; especially, a soldier hired

into foreign service. --Milman.

 

Why mince words? Could there possibly BE a more PC term than "security consultant?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, why not? That war's all about the bling anyway. But this is what I was just saying - a couple of dead family members and "Someone is going to die..." 'Til all the world is blind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tele_nut has some valid insight that more people might share if they were in his situation. I don't agree with all of it, but most of it is right on.

On the other hand, though, icky and scary are cool adjectives. I'll have to use 'em more often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Um...yeah...I think it's the Seattle PI today, the front page image shows an Iraqi kid waving a crude sign that says "Falujah: Cemetary for Americans" or something like that. those poeple fucking HATE us being there, and from the report I heard on NPR this morning, it seems like 100% of Iraqis can't stand us being there as a force of occupation.

 

It's a vicious cycle, and I can't see a clear solution. I will say, though, that leaving Saddam in power will appear in hindsight to have been the best solution if this becomes a regional conflict. If you can say one thing about the muslims, you can say that they don't tolerate apparent injustices to other muslims.

 

As far as privatizing security: BAD IDEA!!! At least the US forces demand restraint in their troops. Kill a marine, and there is a "measured response". Kill a merc, and you'll get "I can't wait to whack a Haji when I get back there." So when a merc takes out the wrong guy using "asymetrical force" to avenge the death of a colleague a la Clint Eastwood, and the place explodes, we'll be really fucked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People need to remember that in Falluja, those people were Saddam's chosen ones. They were the ones who enjoyed all the privilege at the expense of other clans and ethnic groups. They are the ones who lost the most. They lost businesses and government positions.

 

Somehow they figure that they have nothing more to lose, which is totally untrue. They stand to lose their lives. They will never return to their former hegemony over the majority shiites, but obviously believe they can. If they succeed in driving out the Americans, if they decide to take on the Shiites, they will likely get wiped out in a civil war unless another Sunni country supports them. The best they could hope for would be a partitioning of the country, a la Yugoslavia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doolittle and Nonanon,

 

You are about two of the most ignorant sons of bitches I have ever heard. First of all, all laws apply equally to soldiers and contractors as far as use of force. If you think every soldier/Marine over there is all about "measured response" then you are about as unintelligent and uninformed as you come across. There is essentially NO difference in the amount of risk or danger that contractors or soldiers face. Obviously, there is substantial danger to contractors of any type whether they are doing reconstruction or providing close protection. These are not security guards in the form you know them in the US. These are essentially former military and police, with all the same considerations for armament, armor, transportation, rules of engagement as the military are afforded. Civil code applies as well, but since it is a combat site there is a broad level of self preservation in effect. Kill a soldier or Marine and you are getting the same reaction dickneck. They want what everyone wants. Revenge. Technically none of us are mercs as you propose because we are in the service of our own country fullfilling legitimate missions for our own country.

 

Privatization of close protection was because the military is NOT TRAINED or CAPABLE to perform these functions and the contractors used to perform these missions are of a more mature and experienced level than the average Joe. For example, about 50% of the guys on my team are former SEAL DEV GRP (ST6). So by your logic they were kick ass restrained professionals when they were in uniform, but now after many many years of hard experience they have suddenly became yahoos? Blow me weakling. It's pretty plain and simple that way. Find better people to do a more high profile job.

 

Wanting revenge is a natural act when you hear that some of your friends have been killed, and MUTILATED. Sorry if that isn't a PC enough emotion for you, but I have to let both of you know. You don't know what you are talking about across the board other than you both seem to be knee jerking liberals. I bet you're the same kind of guy that was all sniffles after watching Black Hawk Down, or maybe you are the type who sits and judges every minute action from your couch?

 

Mary Lou- Ballard is a long way from anywhere. I suggest you stay there or the real world is going to scare the pants of you and your ignorance. Furthermore, their's a reason you're single girl. You're a butt ugly, simple minded retch, and it's about time you knew it. Now go back to your low rent lifestyle and let me NOT hear from your nasty ass ever again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Somehow they figure that they have nothing more to lose, which is totally untrue. They stand to lose their lives.

 

They stand to gain paradise, which is a lot more attractive to them than their current shituation.

 

Quit looking through a western lens!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I first read J-B’s link to a Fisk report I thought why bother reply he always reads this biased crap. For example look at both the Independent's and the Guardian’s coverage of the Israeli incursion into Jenin. I mention this because I posted many links on CC.com regarding the incredibly inaccurate reporting of this incident by these two outlets. Fisk himself is unbelievably biased for example he has called Arab men “Eagles and Lions” compared the Arab women to “Madonnas" of renaissance artists. Hardly unbiased reporting.

 

Of course his evident bias notwithstanding his grasp of the facts is equally suspect. Here are two examples.

 

1 ) He blamed the 1994 bombing of Israel’s London embassy on a mysterious “Israeli agent,” exonerating the Palestinians who were tried and convicted by British courts.

 

 

2) An April 17, 1996 report on Israel’s Grapes of Wrath campaign against Hizbullah. Visiting a power station supposedly left a “smouldering wreckage” by an Israeli air strike, Fisk reported that Lebanon’s power supply had been “cut by up to a third for the next 18 months.” Israel’s targeting was so devastatingly accurate, Fisk claimed, because in 1982 prescient Israeli soldiers stole “all the plans and maps of the transformer lines and switching systems.”

 

Another reporter, however, no less unfriendly to Israel than Fisk, revealed that the power outage “was actually a result of a deliberate switch-off by the government. This tricked the Israelis into calling off further attacks …. Power was switched back on in full as soon as the cease-fire ‘understanding’ was reached ….” (Godfrey Jansen, MEI, May 10, 1996)

 

Andrew Sullivan (Andrew Sullivan.com) regularly mocks his biased reporting as well.

 

Of course J_B will respond that I am attacking the man rather than his argument. I say in order to judge the argument you must know the man. Fisk himself has been very aggressive in his attacks on other reporters. Here from an interview in the Progressive is a nice statement judging the American press: "American journalists, whether they be on television or in the press, are very frightened of writing a report which is going to make Israel -- or, more important, Israel's supporters in the United States -- unhappy. If you dare to criticize Israel's policies or their actions... you will inevitably get the claim that you must be racist, anti-Semitic, and that is intended to shut you up."

 

Cheers,

 

PP bigdrink.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw video footage of the "MOB" on the news this morning. It was not impressive and didn't seem to possibly represent "all Iraquies". Considering Telle Nut has spent the better part of a year OVER THERE talking to and living with and arround the people who live there, I think the rest of you should STFU. Go there if you need to know the "truth" my bet is that as with most groups of people there are many oppinions and many thoughts and ideas. That is why democracy is what it is. the majority rules, that is established by a vote. it may not make every one happy all the time, but it meats the need sof most of the people most of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I heard on NPR this morning, it seems like 100% of Iraqis can't stand us being there as a force of occupation.
No shit... when you poll the Falujah. That is like polling Rockefeller and Herst about if everything was kosher in N.Y. back in the day. yellaf.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gads, don’t lump mine in w/ Doolittle’s statement! I really don’t know who’s cutting your checks. It could be anybody. My point was the same as your own: the desire for murderous revenge is perfectly natural. Whether it’s reasonable is another question. Still, I think you’ve shown us the problem with the “proximity makes for a more objective pov” argument. Afa the “war being about the bling” goes… Dood, I learned that from you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I saw video footage of the "MOB" on the news this morning. It was not impressive and didn't seem to possibly represent "all Iraquies". Considering Telle Nut has spent the better part of a year OVER THERE talking to and living with and arround the people who live there, I think the rest of you should STFU. Go there if you need to know the "truth" my bet is that as with most groups of people there are many oppinions and many thoughts and ideas. That is why democracy is what it is. the majority rules, that is established by a vote. it may not make every one happy all the time, but it meats the need sof most of the people most of the time.

 

Nice thumbs_up.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gads, don’t lump mine in w/ Doolittle’s statement! I really don’t know who’s cutting your checks. It could be anybody. My point was the same as your own: the desire for murderous revenge is perfectly natural. Whether it’s reasonable is another question. Still, I think you’ve shown us the problem with the “proximity makes for a more objective pov” argument. Afa the “war being about the bling” goes… Dood, I learned that from you.
the war may be about bling BIG PICTURE, for the countries.. but as far as the soldiers(or security contractors) go, ya don't get rich in the military... you do your dutey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×