willstrickland Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 posing. Rod, you might do a bit of research before you adopt the belief that no guides are piggybacking on permits. It has happened and it will continue to happen. Same peak, different peaks, adding non-guided independent climbers to the permit for a little side cash, guiding the clients up the dog route then sending them home and using the permit to attempt a new or different route, adding guides who will not be guiding but just want to climb the peak, using the client permit to get to the area and through the bureacracy and bribing the liason officer to look the other way while they attempt a nearby objective. All of these have happened and as long as the peak fees are exorbitant, they will continue to happen. Your friend might not be participating in these tactics, but some are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scot'teryx Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 CB climbs harder and faster than any of you who are even attempting to flame her. Talk about a woman who has no ego, it's her. And she is a very nice person, unlike most of you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDoolittle Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Clients pay fees, get sick, go home, guides and company owners try technical route on peak, or sneak off to another local peak, after client has paid their way to asia. SCAM. Has happened all the time, is happening all the time, will continue to happen all the time. And asking someone to pay $60,000 so that you can drag them to the summit of an 8000m peak is irresponsible. Too dangerous. Criminal. What would Alex Lowe have done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Running a small business is more difficult than climbing any mountain. Christine should be given a lot of credit for that. As far as clients/guiding. Sometimes people want to learn a new thing like playing a guitar and are willing to pay for others. In some trips like the 8000m peaks the main problem is logistics. Many clients who climb the 8000m peaks are experienced--they just did not want to have to go through all the hoops and organization of doing such an endeavor. They are/were willing to pay for other people to take care of the all the b.s. such as oxygen/permits/porters/yaks/food/equipment/sat phone/transportation getting to the base of the mountain...... I know what it takes because I have seen it first hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gripped Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Clients pay fees, get sick, go home, guides and company owners try technical route on peak, or sneak off to another local peak, after client has paid their way to asia. SCAM. Has happened all the time, is happening all the time, will continue to happen all the time. And asking someone to pay $60,000 so that you can drag them to the summit of an 8000m peak is irresponsible. Too dangerous. Criminal. What would Alex Lowe have done? If the client is happy with the service they bought, and the guides are happy to provide that service, then it is not a scam, it is an mutually benificial agreement. (yes, even if the guides milk a couple of climbs out of the deal) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDoolittle Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Paying to climb big peaks is a lot like big game hunting. Bwana(client) pays darkie(sherpa) to carry crap(food/gear/satellite phone/laptop/espresso machine)into middle of nowhere(Baltoro) so that Bwana can shoot a zebra(climb an 8000m peak)and hang it's head on the wall(take pictures for corner office back at investment firm). Paying a guide service so that you can inflate your ego isn't climbing. And guiding this kind of client is the same as driving the jeep while they shoot at a white rhino. And clients do not belong at 8000m, too much can go wrong, too much is out of control to begin with, and guides can do little to fix things if shit hits the fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Doolittle, Like Stephan, I've been there. I have made arguments similar to yours in the past, but I believe you are not entirely correct. That CAN be the reality, but it is not necessarily so. There are a variety of climbers who go to climb large mountains for a variety of reasons and choose to do so in a variety of styles. There are a variety of guiding services, too. Yes, self-contained alpine-style climbs of big Himalayan peaks, and planning one's own expedition, are both admirable accomplishments. They are fairly rare, however, and in fact I bet the truth of the matter is that most people who do this are independently wealthy or sponsored or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Matt, don't worry about Doolittle. He's just generalizing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gripped Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Paying a guide service so that you can inflate your ego isn't climbing. You are making a presumption about motivation that may or may not be true, and it makes for a weak argument. And guiding this kind of client is the same as driving the jeep while they shoot at a white rhino. The 8000m peaks are not endangered. They aren't going anywhere. This analogy doesn't really work. And clients do not belong at 8000m, too much can go wrong, too much is out of control to begin with, and guides can do little to fix things if shit hits the fan. Nobody BELONGS at 8000m. Everyone up there is taking a risk. Your rhetoric about "the clients are being scammed by the corporation"... "The clients are being led into peril by the corporation" This kind of thinking is just plain aweful. The clients are people. They can make their own decisions. They are resposible for their own actions. To treat them otherwise is foolish. Why interfere in Natural Selection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 The original idea of guiding is cool. Locals showing non-locals the rad spots. Unfortunately now its all commercialized bullshit. I have issues with anyone making money off the mountains because the outdoor industry has propogated this idea that being a climber or climbing some shitheap is cool. And people are willing to pay to be cool. MOST guides have inflated egos and assume that they know more about climbing than non-guides. And that shiz is old. Nevertheless, guides and clients tend to do routes that I don't, so I don't give all that much of a shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Paying to climb big peaks is a lot like big game hunting. Bwana(client) pays darkie(sherpa) to carry crap(food/gear/satellite phone/laptop/espresso machine)into middle of nowhere(Baltoro) so that Bwana can shoot a zebra(climb an 8000m peak)and hang it's head on the wall(take pictures for corner office back at investment firm). Paying a guide service so that you can inflate your ego isn't climbing. And guiding this kind of client is the same as driving the jeep while they shoot at a white rhino. Mr Drool-little, since you're obviously such a purist, why don't you bring the nuts and cams that you've made in your home made forge to pub club sometime. I'm sure lots of us would like to see them. While you're at it, bring along your rope too. In my opinion, buying gear made by someone else is just a step lower than using a guide service to help with the logistics and planning of a climb or expedition.....but we all do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 what's the difference between a guide and a large pizza? pizza can feed a family of 4. what do you call a guide who gets dumped by his/her SO? homeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 i like the massages and blowjobs that guide services give to their clients. it makes it worthwhile for me to pay whatever they ask so i can make it over the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDoolittle Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Bwana shoots white rhino so that he can have a trophy. Climber is led to summit of 8000m peak so that he can have a trophy. Climbers are defiling these mountains with their presence. Clients stop being able to make decisions above 8000m, and trust in their guides, who also lose the ability to make decisions above 8000m. Climbing expeditions have created and perpetuate the peak fees that prevent others from climbing Alpine Style. If Dr. Lawyer wasn't throwing out all the coin, there would be no peak fees. Guiding is dumb anyways. If you want to start a bussiness, buy a falafel cart. We could use one of those. Why turn something fun into work? Getting paid to coil a rope sucks after a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDoolittle Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 But you read it ALL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 MOST guides have inflated egos and assume that they know more about climbing than non-guides You can change that to most CLIMBERS have inflated egos... Do Little sounds like a junior high school kid who just read Into Thin Air and wants to sound smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Climbing expeditions have created and perpetuate the peak fees that prevent others from climbing Alpine Style. Now I know you know nothing about this topic--but have strong opinions. Peak fees have gone up for Nepal / Pakistan becuase those governments want cash directly to their coffers. If there were no guided expeditions, then peaks fees would still have risen becuase the governments still want cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Rod, you might do a bit of research before you adopt the belief that no guides are piggybacking on permits. It has happened and it will continue to happen. Same peak, different peaks, adding non-guided independent climbers to the permit for a little side cash, guiding the clients up the dog route then sending them home and using the permit to attempt a new or different route, adding guides who will not be guiding but just want to climb the peak, using the client permit to get to the area and through the bureacracy and bribing the liason officer to look the other way while they attempt a nearby objective. All of these have happened and as long as the peak fees are exorbitant, they will continue to happen. Your friend might not be participating in these tactics, but some are. Will: Commercial non-guided climbs, or even adding non-guided commecial climbers onto a permit is standard in the industry and always has been. This is mostly in Asia, other areas don't have the same permit issues. I don't see any problem at all toward commercial non-guided climbs or climbers on a permit. I am familar with how it works. Further, ading a guide that just wants to climb a peak is fine, but on many peaks the permit is based on the number of people. Add a guide, cost go up. Now, if the owner is using what would be his profits to cover the increased permit cost allow a guide to climb, so what? That's just dumb business. How does that make guiding under the rules a scam? It doesn't. If someone breaks off of a permited climb and climbs another peak, well, that is breaking the rules. They don't have a pemit for that peak. How does that make guiding under the rules a scam? It doesn't. Doolittle seems pretty clear that all guiding is a scam. I disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDoolittle Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Climbing expeditions have created and perpetuate the peak fees that prevent others from climbing Alpine Style. Now I know you know nothing about this topic--but have strong opinions. Peak fees have gone up for Nepal / Pakistan becuase those governments want cash directly to their coffers. If there were no guided expeditions, then peaks fees would still have risen becuase the governments still want cash. The goverments of Pakistan and Nepal have increased peak fees because the people who want to climb these peaks can afford to pay peak fees. If rich people didn't infect this part of the world with their greed for trophies, there wouldn't be peak fees. And for all of you that "know what you're talking about, cuz' you've been there", would it be possible for me to get one of your T-shirts? Men's medium? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Send me your money order for $29.95. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Here's an example Rod, where I think the client gets scammed: A permit costs $15k + $5k per climber. 2 guides, 4 clients, total costs of $20k. The clients are footing 1/4 of the permit fee, or $5k each. Now add two independent teams of two who piggyback. Company charges them $5k each for a total of $20k thereby saving the indie teams $15k each. Permit fee has risen to $40k. The entire $40k is passed along to the original clients who don't know any better and have no idea what the permit costs or that they are being piggybacked. They're now paying $10k in permit fees each. Prospective Client: "Why is it $60k for this trip?" GuideCo: "Well, the permit fees alone come to $10k per client" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDoolittle Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 And for all of you that "know what you're talking about, cuz' you've been there", would it be possible for me to get one of your T-shirts? Men's medium? Send me your money order for $29.95. Who's the moron? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Climbing expeditions have created and perpetuate the peak fees that prevent others from climbing Alpine Style. Now I know you know nothing about this topic--but have strong opinions. Peak fees have gone up for Nepal / Pakistan becuase those governments want cash directly to their coffers. If there were no guided expeditions, then peaks fees would still have risen becuase the governments still want cash. The goverments of Pakistan and Nepal have increased peak fees because the people who want to climb these peaks can afford to pay peak fees. If rich people didn't infect this part of the world with their greed for trophies, there wouldn't be peak fees. And for all of you that "know what you're talking about, cuz' you've been there", would it be possible for me to get one of your T-shirts? Men's medium? Sorry, I don't work for MM anymore, so I cannot get you a tshirt. In part your are probably right about peak fees...if nobody ever climbed the 8000m peaks then the peak fees would not rise. Most of the people that climb 8000m peaks ARE NOT guided. I would say less than 10% are probably guided expeditions. When you go to an 8000m mountain you will see Koreans, Russians, South Americans, and the largest contingent--the Europeans on each of these mountains. Most of these groups are NOT guided. Hell, the Russians have no money--which I have no idea how they do it. The Koreans, and Italians get paid to climb, so why would they want to guide? It is the demand of climbing these peaks by alpine enthusiasts that have risen the costs.....guided expeditions are not the result of increased fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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