tele_nut Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 I think it (the Middle East) will come around. Iraq and the Iraqi's aren't half bad. Though, who knows what they'll be like in 20 years when they're swimming in money. Hopefully it won't mess them up too bad. Kuwait on the other hand is about the most obnoxious group I've ever seen. Too much money, too little country to do anything in other than drive their cars like maniacs and use up more oil. And Qatar...they treat everyone like peasants. Saudi is a whole other story. I get worried even posting that name on the internet. They'll put your ass on a list. Like I need that headache too. I think the US will prosper greatly from this move, and we will continue to maintain or tenuous foothold on being a superpower for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tele_nut Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 You're right about Russia. They have two things they are really good at. Criminal enterprise and being thugs. If some half ass dictator does go berserker and achieve WMD status it won't be because of their think tank labs hidden in the desert. It will be because Russia sold it to them in some back alley dope deal. Tele_Nut out. It's 1220 in the morning here and I have to get up boucoup early. My boss is nicknamed THE Machine. He just plugs himself into the wall at night. He's killing guys half his age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Without oil, our society would cease to exist. Period. No debate. Until new technology comes along, oil is it. The extent that we feel the need to protect our oil supply is the question. I bet that many people here would be more inclined to go to war to ensure the oil supply if, say, OPEC cut off all oil supply. Our society would not "cease to exist" if we didn't have any more oil. The alternative technology already exists. But old, fat, bald, evil, rich men control the world's oil supply and the US gov't and get fatter, balder, and eviler (in know it's not a word) by selling and controlling oil. Society would move right along fine without these goons. However, if you consider the right to snowmobile and drive a compensator to be our "society" then perhaps you're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Without oil, our society would cease to exist. Period. No debate. Until new technology comes along, oil is it. The extent that we feel the need to protect our oil supply is the question. I bet that many people here would be more inclined to go to war to ensure the oil supply if, say, OPEC cut off all oil supply. Our society would not "cease to exist" if we didn't have any more oil. The alternative technology already exists. But old, fat, bald, evil, rich men control the world's oil supply and the US gov't and get fatter, balder, and eviler (in know it's not a word) by selling and controlling oil. Society would move right along fine without these goons. However, if you consider the right to snowmobile and drive a compensator to be our "society" then perhaps you're right. Cut off all oil. Right now. And see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whirlwind Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 crack head stfu so tele if i'm right on what ur saying, we should just become an imperial nation and start coloines though out the world in order to fill our ever increaseing demand for natuarl resouces. "takeing what is ours" this is definatly not the anwser, re think ur stratagie, this time take into account what happened to all the other "Great" empires of the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Without oil, our society would cease to exist. Period. No debate. Until new technology comes along, oil is it. The extent that we feel the need to protect our oil supply is the question. I bet that many people here would be more inclined to go to war to ensure the oil supply if, say, OPEC cut off all oil supply. Our society would not "cease to exist" if we didn't have any more oil. The alternative technology already exists. But old, fat, bald, evil, rich men control the world's oil supply and the US gov't and get fatter, balder, and eviler (in know it's not a word) by selling and controlling oil. Society would move right along fine without these goons. However, if you consider the right to snowmobile and drive a compensator to be our "society" then perhaps you're right. Cut off all oil. Right now. And see what happens. So now we're reducing the argument down to an impossible, hypothetical scenario? How about if the Yellowstone Caldera erupted next week? (a more likely hypothetical scenario). THEN we'll see if society ceases to exist. Oil ISN'T as important as we all make it out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 E, the technology is there but it hasn't been implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 E, the technology is there but it hasn't been implemented. So, make the technology economically viable and go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 For that to happen there has to be an incentive. And the only incentive that will work is cost. Until then, we are dependent on oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 E, the technology is there but it hasn't been implemented. So, make the technology economically viable and go for it. eg - end the oil subsidies (road funding!) A prime historical example is the El Portal road to Yosemite. There used to be a railroad that ran from Merced to El Portal(other side of the river as you drive in). After the road, built by the state with convict labor opened, it was no longer viable - esp. when the bus companies charged more to go from El Portal to the valley, than from merced to the valley! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 E-rock, I am still wondering how society is going to function without oil. How is your car going to run so you can get to work? How will you heat your house? How will you fly somewhere for a vacation. How will goods be transported when the trucks, trains, and ships have to no oil? I don't think solar energy is gonna cut it for a 800' long container ship. I'm in favor of new technologies, but I don't see them solving many of these issues any time soon. Economics will likely dictate the increased emergence of these new technologies, but changes in oil prices may be a long time a way considering we aren't out of oil yet. And, any oil price increase is bad for the economy, so it seems that maintaining a status quo operation here is the best for now. Of course, if someone could come up with a car that performs just like a regular car and doesn't pollute for the same price, I suspect they would have many buyers, but I don't see too many of those on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 So now, with Iraq, we no longer need Saudi bases, we've dealt OPEC a low card, AND we have Iran pincered between a coalition controlled Afghanistan and Iraq. This is chess at it's finest. What's not to love? i see you are planning on spending the better part of your adult life over there. i hope you like it. how can you not expect that shit is going to hit the fan in a major way both in the middle east and at home unless we backtrack soon. you people will never learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILuvAliens Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 E-rock, I am still wondering how society is going to function without oil. How is your car going to run so you can get to work? How will you heat your house? How will you fly somewhere for a vacation. I think E-rock is saying that times will change that is all. Wood is a good source of heat. We all won't freeze to death. We may not have cars. Who cares. We won't just up and die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 E, the technology is there but it hasn't been implemented. Because we're still using oil, duh. You just argued yourself in a circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superman Posted February 27, 2004 Author Share Posted February 27, 2004 Sounds like folks are split on the issue now. I agree a lot with what tele_nut has to say. Nice discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 E-rock, I am still wondering how society is going to function without oil. How is your car going to run so you can get to work? How will you heat your house? How will you fly somewhere for a vacation. How will goods be transported when the trucks, trains, and ships have to no oil? I don't think solar energy is gonna cut it for a 800' long container ship. I'm in favor of new technologies, but I don't see them solving many of these issues any time soon. Economics will likely dictate the increased emergence of these new technologies, but changes in oil prices may be a long time a way considering we aren't out of oil yet. And, any oil price increase is bad for the economy, so it seems that maintaining a status quo operation here is the best for now. Of course, if someone could come up with a car that performs just like a regular car and doesn't pollute for the same price, I suspect they would have many buyers, but I don't see too many of those on the market. It's an interesting question that I don't think has easy answers. Alternative energy does not entail solar alone. But society did manage to ship before internal combustion engines. We used the wind. I'm not saying that we should go back to wooden boats braving the high seas for spices, but I do think that the loss of oil-powered locomotion which is slowly beginning to occur will drive innovation. Perhaps economies in the future will have to become more locally centered in order to support a society that can't ship large quanitities of goods large distances, but that doesn't mean society will end. Like it or not, we are burning all the oil, and one day it WILL all be gone. If you think this will cause the "end of society" and extinction of humanity merely by the loss of a single resource, than you're ignoring the majority of human history. We cannot sustain at our current rates of consumption, nor at our current populations levels (probably) but we can move forward without oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 It's an interesting question that I don't think has easy answers. Alternative energy does not entail solar alone. But society did manage to ship before internal combustion engines. We used the wind. Uh.... before Oil came coal. Oil wasn't considered strategically signifigant until this century - when Winston Churchill (Lord of the Admiralty at the time) decided to switch the British fleet from coal (abundant in Britain!) to oil (not very abundant pre-North Sea). Realistically energy conservation and reduced use is the future - and the quickest way to obtain these efficencies is by raising the price of energy(oil) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 Whatever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tele_nut Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 I think everyone's opinion in this matter is pretty viable at this point. Everything is in flux and there is plenty of speculation. My opinion is if you distill the human race down to a fine point we are nothing more than animals competing for resources we know we need to survive. Now some would argue that it is our ability to reason and negotiate that seperates us from animals, but history has shown us time and time again that when competing interests collide, and there is enough at stake, that eventually force will be applied to the mix. The strongest will survive and the weak will be extinguished. I understand that this may not always be the "dominant paradigm" as is oft quoted here, and that I may be a dying breed, but this is still sometimes the reality of the human race. If you don't agree with oil as an energy source then I encourage you to "eschew the dominant paradigm", quit using your car, turn off your heaters, quit consuming goods that are somehow connected in any way to the oil industry, get a doctorate in thermophysics, devote your life to research in achieving more efficient energy sources and change the world as we know it. I sense that it won't happen in my time so I will continue to do everything I can to insure that OUR standard of living is maintained and perhaps even enhanced in the current world. I'm sure that when the oil runs out we will be fighting over water or some other insidiuous resource lurking in the shadows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 Whatever Sorry to diabuse your idealistic notion of a locally based economy. The world is heading the opposite direction - and will continue to do so. Or are you willing to give up road trips, and never go more than 100 miles from your home? Buy only climbing gear produced within 100 miles (got to transport it!) Give up on fresh fruits and vegetables in the winter? (those come in from far away!) As for this gem quit consuming goods that are somehow connected in any way to the oil industry, That's everything. Everything you consume has had contact with oil. Food. Consumer Goods. Everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbw1966 Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 It's an interesting question that I don't think has easy answers. Alternative energy does not entail solar alone. But society did manage to ship before internal combustion engines. We used the wind. Uh.... before Oil came coal. Oil wasn't considered strategically signifigant until this century - when Winston Churchill (Lord of the Admiralty at the time) decided to switch the British fleet from coal (abundant in Britain!) to oil (not very abundant pre-North Sea). Realistically energy conservation and reduced use is the future - and the quickest way to obtain these efficencies is by raising the price of energy(oil) I think you meant last century Carl. Nuclear power has been used in maritime locomotion by the military for some time. I'm sure if oil suddenly disappeared attitudes towards nuclear power would change dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 I sense a lot of people still cling to the notion that we are going to suddenly run out of oil. We will NEVER run out of oil. NEVER. It's price will rise, inexorably, and demand will fall until it is in line with supply at the given price. The use of oil as fuel will be the first to be curtailed. It's use in manufacturing (i.e. plastics, chemicals) will persist for a very long time to come. If oil ever gets too expensive for that, then coal will be gassified or Canadian tar sands utilized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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