RuMR Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Who plans on falling, anyway? People who climb hard. I plan not to fall, but realize that it is always a possibility -- regardless of the difficulty of the climb. uhhh...i'm with scott on this...many routes i get on, i KNOW i'm going to pitch before i get them sussed out...gear or bolts... You're not falling, you're not pushing yourself...simple as that...with that in mind, put the cam on the aid rack or throw it in the can... Funny thing...i've mushroomed lobes on small tcu's by falling on them...this is compression yielding in my book...not fracturing in a tensile sense...at least this is what i tell myself so as to keep the piece in service and not worry on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Who plans on falling, anyway? People who climb hard. I plan not to fall, but realize that it is always a possibility -- regardless of the difficulty of the climb. uhhh...i'm with scott on this...many routes i get on, i KNOW i'm going to pitch before i get them sussed out...gear or bolts... You're not falling, you're not pushing yourself...simple as that...with that in mind, put the cam on the aid rack or throw it in the can... Semantics? Difference of perspective? The way I see it, if I plan on falling, I probably will (self-fulfilling prophecy). I always prefer to think there is the possibility that I might make it, however remote. When I'm climbing hard there is a higher probability that I will fall (like 99.99%), so I factor that into my judgment and act accordingly. If that is what is implied by planning to fall, so be it. But I still don't plan on falling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 ha! 99.99% chance of falling + the fact that i suck means i WILL fall! HA HAHAHAHA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 when I go climbing with Tex I know I am going to spend 90% of my time hanging on the rope rather than on the wall. I know this becuase he pushes me to climb that hard. when I want to practice my leading (and I say practicing because I am not realy a leader) I work well with in my my climbing ability.. honestly I realy hate to fall. realy realy hate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Why? If the gear is good who cares??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 (edited) Why? If the gear is good who cares??? me I am such a wimp btw, I think this is what makes me such a chicken shit leader still working on it Edited February 19, 2004 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbertWest Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Climbing is about calculated risk. With so much that can possibly go wrong, much of it beyond your control, why would you want to stack the deck against yourself? I would rather expect my gear to do its job than expect it to fail. That said, it is a personal decision based upon your own tolerance for risk. I don't care if you people sling weeds with rubberbands for pro. what are you saying? I sling weeds with rubberbands... Seriously though, I agree with marking it and using it for other functions. Like an uppward placement at the bottom of a route, if you're conserned about the uppward pull of the rope caused by a fall will pull the first peice, second peice in a domino afect... I donno go with your first intuition, what you feel comfortable with.... Direct aid only. Exclude junk gear from belays when possible. Better yet, fix it in the best finger jam at the crux of some climb you want to ruin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbertWest Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Bad gear is also a waste of time and energy. Better to run it out on good gear than to fuck around getting shitty gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbertWest Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Somtimes it's worth the rope drag to set a crappy piece that'll probably hold a very short fall. Y'know, like those situations when you've got one chossy move to make it to easier ground and/or better pro. Usually those pieces don't even give you too much ropedrag either since they eventually self-clean. Why waste you time getting gear that would "probably" hold a short fall? It had "better" hold a short fall. As far as "self-cleaning" gear that creates ropedrag?????? What drugs are you on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Because sometimes a short fall is your primary concern, and there's no other possibilities for better gear. If the gear self-cleans it won't be causing rope drag anymore. Understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbertWest Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Because sometimes a short fall is your primary concern, and there's no other possibilities for better gear. If the gear self-cleans it won't be causing rope drag anymore. Understand? 1) You can't guarentee it will self-clean 2) If it doesn't, you get to enjoy the rope drag. Have fun, dumbass 3) If it does, it's useless. You'll wish you had it up higher, according to Choad's Law. 4) Choad's Law also dictates that the peice will invariably get stuck in a postion where you don't want it to be. 5) Ever heard of "style"? How stylish is having your shitty, rope-drag creating gear that probably wouldn't hold a fall in the first place not fall out like it's supposed to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 1) Don't place it, enjoy your "style" while you crater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 how about not depending on the gear so much, and JUST NOT FALLING I thought and what I have read and bean tought is that the gear is there just incase....if you are using it you are climbing AID Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 i sling my weed into my bowl how the f@ck do you use the rubber band? i thought rubber bands were for turning bulls into steers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 ...that's why you are scared to lead...your gear is absolutely there to catch you, so you can go for it... OTW, just solo and save the energy needed to place it... who's been teaching you and where did you read this?????????? That's plain nuts/crap...also guaranteed to land you in a big fat rut as far as ability is concerned...and don't pull style on me...its stupid-like to pose down on 5.7 just cuz you don't want to push your limits on something that your physical body can climb but you'll have to work out...I think watching a climber who couldn't even work out the moves 1st try, suss something out, and then push himself/herself to their absolute physical max for a redpoint is infinitely superior style to someone who has all of the grace of a gazelle on some stupid route that any idiot could climb... There are three ways to climb in my book: 1.) Try for an onsight...select the route to match your ability...ie, if you are onsight .12b 50% of the time, there's a good likelyhood that you'll pitch...so pick one that has good gear available OR if you onsight .11a damn near ALL of the time, go ahead and pick a more dangerous route and feel free to rely on your climbing skill and not gear to save you... 2.) Try for a solo...onsight, better be waaaaaay below your protected onsight level...rehearsed...dial that motherfucker down and don't fall... 3. Redpoint/headpoint...rehearsed...go ahead and climb waaaay over your onsight level and fall fall fall fall fall then SEND...headpoint: dial that motherfucker down and don't fall.. its best to climb all 3 styles all of the time...each one compliments the other, period! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 ...that's why you are scared to lead...your gear is absolutely there to catch you, so you can go for it... OTW, just solo and save the energy needed to place it... who's been teaching you and where did you read this?????????? That's plain nuts/crap...also guaranteed to land you in a big fat rut as far as ability is concerned...and don't pull style on me...its stupid-like to pose down on 5.7 just cuz you don't want to push your limits on something that your physical body can climb but you'll have to work out...I think watching a climber who couldn't even work out the moves 1st try, suss something out, and then push himself/herself to their absolute physical max for a redpoint is infinitely superior style to someone who has all of the grace of a gazelle on some stupid route that any idiot could climb... There are three ways to climb in my book: 1.) Try for an onsight...select the route to match your ability...ie, if you are onsight .12b 50% of the time, there's a good likelyhood that you'll pitch...so pick one that has good gear available OR if you onsight .11a damn near ALL of the time, go ahead and pick a more dangerous route and feel free to rely on your climbing skill and not gear to save you... 2.) Try for a solo...onsight, better be waaaaaay below your protected onsight level...rehearsed...dial that motherfucker down and don't fall... 3. Redpoint/headpoint...rehearsed...go ahead and climb waaaay over your onsight level and fall fall fall fall fall then SEND...headpoint: dial that motherfucker down and don't fall.. its best to climb all 3 styles all of the time...each one compliments the other, period! see sometimes mouthing off and being wrong allows me to learn, I see I have some things to think about. tex says that something is not climbed unless I lead it clean. the rest I read in some book. bet it's way old school when there was less pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 how about not depending on the gear so much, and JUST NOT FALLING I thought and what I have read and bean tought is that the gear is there just incase....if you are using it you are climbing AID No Muffy, every piece of gear you put in should hold a fall until your next placement. The leader must not fall was outdated since the advent of dynamic ropes. If you're climbing within you limit, then your gear is just in case. But you should be climbing comfortably enough not to put in a crappy piece. If your climbing at or above your limit, then your gear had goddamn well better be designed to hold a fall. The only time you should be putting a shitty piece in is A.) that's all you got - good luck! B.) you're climbing at your limit, you think you're gonna blow and don't wanna fall and the only gear you can get in with your forearms screaming is a shitty piece to hold your wieght or catch a short fall. As for the rope drag self cleaning piece....unless the traverse is hard and a fall would hurt/kill you, you have to suck it up and run it out till the rope is running in more of a straight line. You should never expect your gear to clean itself. I'd throw a beer can at my partner if I saw him/her fucking around with that trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 how the f@ck do you use the rubber band? You use the rubberband to hold together the cam you dropped. It is best to do the repair while climbing right before placing the piece that you don't really need because gear serves no real purpose. It's just a mental piece anyway, and you're not going to fall, so it's best to waste as much time and energy as possible placing a piece of worthless pro. But if you did fall on the protection that you don't need to begin with it's going to fail anyway so it's best that it at least appear to be sound -- hence the use of the rubberband. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I absolutely agree w/ Tex...if you look at each of the 3 methods i described, you'll see that they all keep you safe and all result in a successful ascent...its just that sometimes that successful ascent isn't on the first try...i think sometimes you're gonna have to work a little bit harder to guarantee your safety/success...also, they compliment each other... look at it this way...say you are going to go redpoint a solid .11c, yet the hardest thing you've successfully completed onsight is .10a...well, you are gonna have to get strong...much stronger than you are now...one way is to work an .11c into the ground while training specifically for that route's redpoint on days you can't get on it...keep this up until that route is redpointed and you will notice your onsight is creeping UP in level from .10a...money says you'll be onsighting some 10+'s by the time that 11c goes down for a redpoint... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 what I am gathering here is that I have been being too hard on myself as far as HOW I progress in my climbing. Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 how the f@ck do you use the rubber band? You use the rubberband to hold together the cam you dropped. It is best to do the repair while climbing right before placing the piece that you don't really need because gear serves no real purpose. It's just a mental piece anyway, and you're not going to fall, so it's best to waste as much time and energy as possible placing a piece of worthless pro. But if you did fall on the protection that you don't need to begin with it's going to fail anyway so it's best that it at least appear to be sound -- hence the use of the rubberband. I think I read that in the Freedom of the Hills too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 ...along with never falling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 No one has pointed out in their sagely advice, that falling is fucking scary. It is very good to practice falling. If I fall on route, i actually climb better cuz I'm more relaxed cuz I know I'm not gonna die. Still pretty fucking scary though! It's not a natural thing your mind wants you to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 how about not depending on the gear so much, and JUST NOT FALLING I thought and what I have read and bean tought is that the gear is there just incase....if you are using it you are climbing AID No Muffy, every piece of gear you put in should hold a fall until your next placement. The leader must not fall was outdated since the advent of dynamic ropes. If you're climbing within you limit, then your gear is just in case. But you should be climbing comfortably enough not to put in a crappy piece. If your climbing at or above your limit, then your gear had goddamn well better be designed to hold a fall. The only time you should be putting a shitty piece in is A.) that's all you got - good luck! B.) you're climbing at your limit, you think you're gonna blow and don't wanna fall and the only gear you can get in with your forearms screaming is a shitty piece to hold your wieght or catch a short fall. As for the rope drag self cleaning piece....unless the traverse is hard and a fall would hurt/kill you, you have to suck it up and run it out till the rope is running in more of a straight line. You should never expect your gear to clean itself. I'd throw a beer can at my partner if I saw him/her fucking around with that trick. Mikey, you hit the nail on the head.. that is what I was thinking.. "leader never falls" perhaps I shopuld find my way to climbing in this century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 (edited) No one has pointed out in their sagely advice, that falling is fucking scary. It is very good to practice falling. If I fall on route, i actually climb better cuz I'm more relaxed cuz I know I'm not gonna die. Still pretty fucking scary though! It's not a natural thing your mind wants you to do Totally agree...man, when you know you're comin' off but aren't quite off...whoah, full on panic alert...that's even when your rational mind knows the gear's good... Although on a hard redpoint on my 6000000th try, I'm usually screaming "FUCK" because i'm pissed not scared...same thing as your point that once you've fallen, its erased some of those little doubts in your brain! Edited February 20, 2004 by RuMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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