pope Posted May 9, 2002 Author Share Posted May 9, 2002 Absurd. You may catch me contradicting myself some day; I'll let you know when that happens. Sorry about the name calling. Occasionally you're not all that boring. The "convenience trail" is a joke Dwayner and I thought of when it turned out that our overland route took hours of scrambling over tangling brush and fallen/burned trees. We thought it would be funny to report the hike as a new and faster way to the wall. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nobody is ever going to use the route, and if they do, we will have a good laugh. That said, a new trail to SCW isn't a terrible idea. The existing trail is too steep in sections and prone to erosion, kind of like the old Castle Rock trail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by pope: quote:Originally posted by Lambone: So here is a question Mr. "bolts are bad for the environment," What kinda trail is this your talkin about? Is it established? Switchbacks? Or is it just another climber's scar leading from point A to point B in the shortest time possible? Just curious, thanks in advance for the clarification. Firstly, thanks but no thanks for attibuting that quote to me. What I said is, bolts are ugly and alien to the mountain environment.... Some of the Ayatollah’s posts concerning bolting and the environment: “I suspect people won't join my cause, but a significant number of people have similar feelings. My point is that enjoyment per se is not justification for permanently damaging a public resource, and that those who would engage in this are valuing their personal gratification over wilderness preservation, over respecting a limited resource and those who wish to keep it natural. Again, I don't expect people to come join "my" cause, but I would like people to think before taking this construction-zone approach to "traditional" cliffs. That's what would seem to make sense for everybody on either side of this argument” “I could have a good time doing all kinds of things: firing a gun within city limits, messin'around with your wife, beating up nice girls at a Mardi Gras celebration downtown, driving my motorcycle down the sidewalk,etc. Enjoyment is not justification when other factors must be considered, like the fact that cliffs are PUBLIC space and, therefore, should be used in such a way that doesn't step on others' toes. Like the fact that bolts damage rock and do so permanently. To you, enjoyment is enough motivation to bolt up a sport route, or to endorse this practice by clipping those bolts. Your enjoyment comes at a cost to me, however, and that's why we need to get back to the idea that cliffs are a limited, public resource which should be preserved.” “It's just an opinion, and it's not just my opinion, and it's not the opinion that's so special, it's the wilderness. In the city, I accept certain evils as part of our culture, but I try to minimize my impact. When I go to the hills, I try to escape that stuff. Peace out bro.” More of the same can be found here: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000522 Just having some fun here – and I think Lambone has a point. Launching into tirades about how bolts desecrate the environment and then bragging about the new convenience trail that you’ve blazed up instead of taking the existing trail is the literal definition of “glaring contradiction.” Hopefully we’ll be spared the “I condemn bolting because I am the epitome of the environmentally conscious climber” line from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 hey caviesarous...dios mio when did you hack thru the firewall and get back online...or did bill go on vacation... GOod your not drunk in the ditch or stuck in some hole of buttcrack town like me in Barstow...waiting for the sun to set in an A/c library to party till dawn redneck hippie style...ohh i cannot wait. Then northward to Bishop,lonepine,mobilat Leevining,sanora pass, castle crags...Has it stopped snowing yet in Warshington? later skaters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMAZONIA Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Originally posted by pope: I have no idea what a KTK is and I can assure you that I'm not associated with it/them/whatever Yeah right you have been surfing this site longer than me, you know what the KTK (Kascade Trad klan ) is. Your secret is safe with me Dude you left your sheet and crowbar in the SUV . You can get it tonight...Thursday night ethic crusade...The bone or JB's shameless sportos, don't they know climbing is about risking life and limb for fun. How can there be any fun in shameless clipping of bolts and cool moves, they proably even bring there friends to the crag with them and joke and have fun. You don't think they smoke purple hairy stank sticky doobs do you?? That must be the reason those sportos are always laughing and careing on!! Don't they know this is serious shit!! [ 05-09-2002, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: CAMAZONIA ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted May 9, 2002 Author Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by CAMAZONIA: Originally posted by pope: I have no idea what a KTK is and I can assure you that I'm not associated with it/them/whatever Yeah right you have been surfing this site longer than me, you know what the KTK (Kascade Trad Clan ) is. Your secret is safe with me Dude you left your sheet and crowbar in the SUV . You can get it tonight...Thursday night ethic crusade...The bone or JB's shameless sportos, don't they know climbing is about risking life and limb for fun. How can there be any fun in shameless clipping of bolts and cool moves, they proably even bring there friends to the crag with them and joke and have fun. You don't think they smoke purple hairy stank sticky doobs do you?? That must be the reason those sportos are always laughing and careing on!! Don't they know this is serious shit!! I drive a little 4-cylinder commuter car. My crowbar doesn't fit unless I strap it to the roof. Thanks for describing the cultural happenings at these sportcliffs; I had no knowledge or interest about such things. Now I have knowledge. [ 05-09-2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: pope ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Lambone and Jay may be a little over-zealous in pointing out your hypocrisy, Pope (though I agree with them in part), but isn't it also kind of obnoxious to deliberately post false beta on a board such as this? Is it really all that funny if some poor sucker reads your "beta" and misses the opportunity to undertake their dream climb of Outer Space on their one and only day off all summer? Dudes: let's find some other way to amuse ourselves besides flinging insults back and forth, stirring up hostility, and spreading misinformation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 But Mattp perhaps you are missing the twist! You see, mayhaps, Pope was actually clued in to his inconsistency by the heel nippers. He then felt bad that he might be contributing to the degradation of a fine area. The obvious easy way to undo any possible environmental damage (AND not give in to the heel nippers and save some face) was to now lie and say the trail doesn't exist, it's just a joke. Food for thought? That being said, even if perhaps there IS a fabulous shortcut to SCW, if you have only have ONE chance to go do your dream climb on SCW, I would suggest that you take the sure way. I've always suspected that ScottP's mythical "Beckey" shortcut to SCW was just a ruse, spammed to E-climbers, to send them off on a bushwhack while he himself got ahead of them by taking the normal trail. Much like the scenario Pope is now playing. Jeez, Pope, you don't even have original material! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 You, know what really bothers me...and no its not pope, dwayner, sportos, or trad clans.... It's that new section of trail someone carved on the approach to the lower town wall...WTF! That is what realy bothers me. Who would have the nerve to do that? Why? And how is that crappy new scar supposed to be any better than the old one...and what were they planning to do about the old trail? Looks like they just wanted a trail variation just for the hell of it... That's what realy pisses me off. All this back and forth with pope is just for fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: that new section of trail someone carved on the approach to the lower town wall...WTF! That is what realy bothers me. Who would have the nerve to do that? Why? And how is that crappy new scar supposed to be any better than the old one...and what were they planning to do about the old trail? Sorta playing devil's "advicate" here... It looks like someone thought the old trail was in an erosion trough , and were making a less erosion-prone trail. However, I can't really see how the old one is really even on enough of a hill to have erosion make any difference . But then again, I am no trail-building expert. I've gone on a couple of trail build/fix days headed by people who supposedly are experts. They did a lot of things that I thought did not make sense. So there you go, either I don't know WTF I'm talking about or the trail "experts" don't. Hmmm.... Last I was at Index, that new trail was all covered up like people were attempting to erase the mistake. You were there just the other day right Lammy? What's up with scar #2 now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 I was there last week, some one has covered it up...but it needs more work. I'd agree that the old trail is a trough. But it didn't seem that it was eroding quickly...at least I haven't noticed any difference in the last three years. It looks like someone tried to line the trail with granite a long time ago to reduce topsoil erosion. The thing that bothers me is that whoever decided that there should be a new trail, made no attempt to erase the old trail...which would be a major project! It's like they only did the easy work,tearing up a new trail, but left the hard work for someone else. I think the old trail is bound to be there for a while, unless someone removes all the granite and takes a big rototiller to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMAZONIA Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by pope: I drive a little 4-cylinder commuter car. My crowbar doesn't fit unless I strap it to the roof. Thanks for describing the cultural happenings at these sportcliffs; I had no knowledge or interest about such things. Now I have knowledge. Dude trying to tickel you funny bone is like trying to tread a needle with 11mm rope, it just isn't happening is it!! You must be so... much fun to climb with? You really just don't get it do you ?? You give new meaning to my auto sig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by chucK: (snip) I've always suspected that ScottP's mythical "Beckey" shortcut to SCW was just a ruse, spammed to E-climbers, to send them off on a bushwhack while he himself got ahead of them by taking the normal trail. Much like the scenario Pope is now playing. Jeez, Pope, you don't even have original material! Yeah, that's the ticket! And I've seen Morgan Fairchild naked... There is no Beckey Shortcut. It is a ruse. Fred blazed those 26 switchbacks himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 The plot thickens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by pope: Absurd. You may catch me contradicting myself some day; I'll let you know when that happens Looks like reason and logic just took the last plane out of SeaTac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: The thing that bothers me is that whoever decided that there should be a new trail, made no attempt to erase the old trail... Maybe they did? Maybe all those logs and debris currently piled into scar #2 were originally in scar #1, then some irate traditional do-gooders restored the original trail by dumping all that sh*t into scar #2. That would be my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 I don't think so. The first time I saw the new "trail" was in early March (aiding in the rain session). There was no debris on either trail, and the new one was freshly dug/chopped up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted May 9, 2002 Author Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by chucK: But Mattp perhaps you are missing the twist! You see, mayhaps, Pope was actually clued in to his inconsistency by the heel nippers. He then felt bad that he might be contributing to the degradation of a fine area. The obvious easy way to undo any possible environmental damage (AND not give in to the heel nippers and save some face) was to now lie and say the trail doesn't exist, it's just a joke. Food for thought? Speculative. Hike up there and see if YOU can knock 17 minutes off your time. There is no trail. There is no damage. quote: Originally posted by mattp: isn't it also kind of obnoxious to deliberately post false beta on a board such as this? Is it really all that funny if some poor sucker reads your "beta" and misses the opportunity to undertake their dream climb of Outer Space on their one and only day off all summer? Thanks, Dad. I’m sure you’re right. I’m an A.H., and your scenario has such a high probability of transpiring that I feel awful. quote: Originally posted by willstrickland: Looks like reason and logic just took the last plane out of SeaTac[/QB] Please explain, Will. quote: Originally posted by Bronco: I also think pope's original post was a nice troll and he did an efficent job of running with whatever you goofballs gave him (and keep giving him) That was the intent, but some mad bolters let their guilt get the best of them and tried to find a character flaw in Pope. When you stick your head up, somebody is going to try to cut it off. Lambone’s got a sense of humor, and I kind of like the lad. A couple of other whiners on this board have volunteered for some kind of Pope Editorial Board, but most of them are sore that Pope has an issue with bolts. At least one of the guys who continually corrects me, who has been looking for contradictions and who has called me “dishonest”, is a guy who has retro-bolted a number of climbs, even without first consulting the guys who pioneered the route. He's the guy who inspired my 1000-word confession, telling Dwayner at Pube Club that Pope needed to 'fess up. Maybe we'll see him in Confessional. Look, my friends, it’s been nice. I don’t have the time. The useful information is sparse, as is the funny business, and the tension is high. See you in the hills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 You can rip on sport climbers all you want pope, and I hope that makes you happy, but keep in mind: Lambone - has never placed a bolt in his life. Pope - has. This is in response to these statements, and is intended not to create tension...but to remind everyone that your insluts towars me and others are not only lame, but hypocrytical: "What I'm saying instead, and quite consistently I might add, is that bolts are ugly and alien to the mountain environment...by this I mean that climbing to me is a wilderness experience and I wish to see a minimum of human traces when I climb." Nevertheless, I hope you have a good time in the hills, enjoy the sunshine, becarefull not to let the mountain see the ounce of loser in you! [ 05-09-2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: (snip) Lambone - has never placed a bolt in his life. (snip) I would guess that: a)you haven't been climbing very long. b)you haven't done much in the way of first ascents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 a) since 1989 b) only alpine routes with natural gear I pretty much share the same opinion as pope regarding the placement of bolts, I never have fely like it was my place to drill a hole in the rock. However, I don't go around publicly dissing on other forms of climbing and climbers. I like it all, and belive in to each his own. I only have a problem with other people calling one form of climbing a "pussy sport." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMAZONIA Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Ok all jokes aside, Pope what they are trying to tell you is you can't have it both ways. 1...If you posted a sandbag to get climbers to cross country bushwack needlessly your an asshole. 2...you did actualy find a back door to SCW and cut a new trail accross fragile countryside your an asshole. Also consider this if Larry the tool reads the post hits print saves this and other documentation he and other tools can later use it to deny access or place futher restrictions on climbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by pope: quote:Originally posted by willstrickland: Looks like reason and logic just took the last plane out of SeaTac Please explain, Will.[/QB] "When I contradict myself, I'll let you know" That should explain it. If not, no amount of argument, written, verbal, or otherwise on my part will get my point across. But, anyone who gives a rat's ass about my points needs help anyway so selah... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackhead Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 [/qb]Prick is a five-letter word. [/QB] This is pure comedy! Thanks you dudes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 I find it hard to get worked up over 20' of trail in an area that was heavily quarried not too long ago. I also think pope's original post was a nice troll and he did an efficent job of running with whatever you goofballs gave him (and keep giving him) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Bronco: I find it hard to get worked up over 20' of trail in an area that was heavily quarried not too long ago. True true Bronco! "But when put into the context of the grand scheme of todays society, your complaint is laughable, both in this counrty, and especialy in countries/cultures much less privilaged than us. The vision of the monk pouring gasoline all over himself comes to mind." Who's the "hierocrat" now Lammy?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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