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Alyosha

How do you clip your belay biner to your harness?

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I always use a my belay loop as recommended by the instructions. A large advantage the belay loop has over clipping directly into the leg/waistebelt is that it extendeds my device farther aways from my harness. So when stacking rope over my tie in point (while multipicth climbing) I am still able to manuver my device. Maybe a small point but definetely easier for belaying while multi pitch climbing.

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I clip my pearbiner to the belay loop. I do this more for ease of use and comfort than anything. I've heard people stump for both set-ups. My opinion is that, unless the harness is really old or damaged, the belay loop is supposed to be strong enough to take a fall. It seems too dangerous for them to manufacture otherwise. That's why the loop is so sturdy looking (at least on my harness).

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I don't think the question is whether putting the biner through the leg and waist loop or just the belay loop, will reduce the strength of the harness. Rather the question is what it does to the biner. Tying through the two leg loops is supposed to make the biner prone to cross loading. This is why the harness manufactures recomend against it. I think whether or not this happens depends entirely on what biner you're using and how you have it positioned. Try hanging in your harness and check if the rope is in the top corner away from the gate and the harness loops in the lower corner away from the gate. If so, then there is no problem setting up your harness this way. If the harness is holding the biner sideways, or the harness loops aren't in the same corner, then the forces on the biner will cause it to fault sooner. I use a petzl attache biner with the wide end up and the locking gate in. Whenever my harness is weighted, the two harness loops end up in the corner with the rope in the other end.

 

Another thing to think about is using your harness to protect your screwgate. If you ever rappel on a Munter hitch always put your biner through the leg and waist loops not the belay loop. This way you can have the screw gate covered by the two loops. I saw a guy rappeling off a ridge with a munter hitch and the biner through the belay loop. The munter twisted the biner around until the rope was rubbing the gate. As he was coming down the final 10 feet, he started moving really quick. Turns out the rope with all the twisting, unscrewed his gate and completely undid the knot. He ended up on falling onto the snow with the rope simply passing through the biner. wazzup.gif

 

The knot was tied properly and the gate was locked before he started down. We were with an instructor and everything was checked before he let him go down. The instructor was blown away by it. He was 60+ years old and had been climbing since he was 16. He said he never heard of it happening, but he also never had a belay loop until then.

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I can't remember who it was on this site (mattp maybe) who showed how there are two possible ways a munter hitch can go on a biner. One way the movement of the rope loosens the locking nut, whereas the other way tightens it. It's something to think about.

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rappelling using a munter hitch is about the dumbest technique there is anyways. there is direct rope on rope friction producing both kinking and accelerated rope wear. i'd rather use a #6 tricam as a rappel device.

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get a #6 and you will see. it's one of the ones that is bolted together sections rather than solid metal. you use it kinda like a Reverso

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get a #6 and you will see. it's one of the ones that is bolted together sections rather than solid metal. you use it kinda like a Reverso
I just can't see it.. draw me a picture will you?? I have never heard an alternative to a munter confused.gif ( I don't know how to use a reverso either.. as I do not have one)

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camptricam.jpg

 

pull rope bight between two lower bars and out bottom hole. clip biner through bight. rappel. you can belay with it too.

 

[see Extreme Alpinism by Twight for more details] cool.gif

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camptricam.jpg

 

pull rope bight between two lower bars and out bottom hole. clip biner through bight. rappel. you can belay with it too.

 

[see Extreme Alpinism by Twight for more details] cool.gif

COOL DRU bigdrink.gif thans for the picture grin.gif I would still want to pra ctice before I tried it in an emergancy.... I did see a kid drop his belay device today blush.gif made me think about what I would do besides cry cry.gif

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admittedly, who carries a #6 tricam anyways confused.gif

 

but the principle can bew applied to other pieces of gear.

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That's it Dru, now I've got to get me one of those multifunctional babies. BTW, BillSimpkins carries one. It is his "poor man's Camalot #4".

 

Regarding the Munter Hitch for rappel, I would agree that it is not to be preferred but it is good to know how to use it in a pinch.

Edited by catbirdseat

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in extremis i just make a brake bar setup out of a locking biner and a angle piton. wave.gif

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A understanding of the Munter and the carabiner brake rappel is priceless.

This all became clear when I heard my first figure-8 ricocheting off the ledge below and into the night.

"are we going to have to stay up here a-a-a-all night-t-t-t-t?".....

"yes, and you're the little spoon...."

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nice.... ya this happend years ago when I was taking my first and only mountaineering coarse through school. There were 2 guides to 30 students with no gear. I guess its a real struggle to get any funding from the college for any equipment. It worked kinda well because we were able to try out the munter and not have to worry about coming up with thirty rappel devices. We coulda made them out of biners and we did in a different class but being out there, we didn't have the time to set them up and double check them for 30 newbies. What an eye opener though... made me really start thinking about what can happen to you with tried and tested procedures. As for tying it so that it screws the gate on, I guess it just depends which side you are braking on as there is only one way to tie it. I'll have to look at that next time I get stuck.

 

A munter is a life saver and neccessary to know especially when you're the "little spoon."moon.gif

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in extremis i just make a brake bar setup out of a locking biner and a angle piton. wave.gif

 

in extremis i just make a sticht plate setup out a an broken wine bottle and good sized bong. mushsmile.gif

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That's it Dru, now I've got to get me one of those multifunctional babies. BTW, BillSimpkins carries one. It is his "poor man's Camalot #4".

 

Regarding the Munter Hitch for rappel, I would agree that it is not to be preferred but it is good to know how to use it in a pinch.

 

Not any more. I'm no longer a poor man! I just use the large Tech Friends now ! heheheh

If I'm in somewhere where I'm saving weight, I belay/rappel on a munter. The munters work great, I use them all the time, although I prefer an ATC.

As far as were to put the biner...If your harness has a belay loop...USE IT! If not, do it the other way.

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I've been using an Alpine Bod harness since I started climbing 5 years ago. I just bought a real harness with a belay loop and real padded leg loops. I love it. It seems decadent by comparison. One can better lock off a belay with the device further in front of you and rappelling is easier too.

 

I'll still use my bod for glaciers and alpine stuff. I can get into it in less than half the time it takes to get into the other harness.

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I was at Second Ascent the other day and saw a good diagram and visual explanation of why you shouldn't tie in to a biner that has been routed through the waist belt and the leg belt as suggested by some here.

 

It creates a three way load on the biner (as stated by some here). Biners are tested and designed for a two way load. The weakest part of the biner is the gate. When you use the biner in the way suggested by some here, and a leader falls (or any weight is placed on the rope) it could create a three way load (waist belt, leg webbing, and the rope). Should anyone of these three loads land on the gate, failure is POSSIBLE.

 

I tried to find the Petzel link with the diagram, but I couldn't find it.

 

Given the POSSIBILITY of a three way load on the biner and the second possibility of the load on the gate, I don't see why one would do it this way.

 

But hey, I'm just here for the beer.......

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