Rodchester Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Colin: As far as the bolts on Ingals go...I assume you mean the rap station bolts? I think there is a difference between rap station bolts and bolts to protect the leader. The fewer bolts the better. But I can live with bolts at rap stations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 This is Gaper_#1, If you bolters want to place bolts how about replacing some in good spots. That should keep you busy for a while. You can start with Peshastin Shingles and then the rap station on the NR of Stuart bypass. When you are done with those report back and then I will have another projekt for you. If you do NR before me this summer let me know so I don't have to remove those 1958 rap bolts and redrill... I never said anything about Dana's arch Crackbolter. Also you never responded to mine. Avoding subjects eh! Gaper_#1 Has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Dudes: I'm surprised that there isn't more talk of top-roping. Virtually everything at Vantage can be top roped (except maybe a couple of them free-standing "Feathers".) Such an approach would have saved that place from becoming the bolted atrocity that it is. Also, them old scary routes...if you add additional bolts to "make it safer", than you destroy the character of the route. By that justification, you might argue that bolts every three feet are perhaps safer than bolts every four feet. Often bolts are used to "dumb-down" routes for the unskilled masses....sad, sad situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 This is Gaper_#1, Just to clarify for people like Mr. Dwayner. I don't say add more bolts to supplement. I say replace old 194? stuff and keep it in it's original form. It is obvious many of you bolters are to lazy to replace the bolts (upgrade) on older routes in the mountains. You are sooo busy making your name in books. I think Crackbolter is simply looking for sympathetic people here to justify his bolting ideas publicly. That is poor judgement and he knows what is right and wrong. Gaper_#1 Has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackbolter Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Gaper_#1: This is Gaper_#1, I think Crackbolter is simply looking for sympathetic people here to justify his bolting ideas publicly. That is poor judgement and he knows what is right and wrong. I never said anything about Dana's arch Crackbolter. Also you never responded to mine. Avoding subjects eh! Gaper_#1 Has spoken. Hmmmm... First of all, if I wanted sympathy I would not be looking toward climbers. What are my bolting ideas? I am not sure I understand...I'm kinda SLOE. I honestly don't know what is right. I just do it because I CAN without too much grief. If word has it that I don't bolt then you know who I am and what my ethics are? What am I suppose to respond to now? What subjects am I avioding? I want opinions and it looks like I came to the right place! - - and be marry. R-eal A-ass Y-o! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: i think nelson needs to put that correction in his update, that rapping that route is not the choice way to do things.....walk the off....... Erik, Where is this walkoff? Are you trying to be coy or not ruin others' wilderness climb by giving the beta? So what do you want Nelson to put in his update? "Don't rap from the obvious bolts. Go some other way. I'm not saying where." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dwayner: Dudes: I'm surprised that there isn't more talk of top-roping. Virtually everything at Vantage can be top roped (except maybe a couple of them free-standing "Feathers".) Such an approach would have saved that place from becoming the bolted atrocity that it is. No disrespect to Professor Dwayner here - judging by his posts I think he is a cool guy - but when he and Pope post on bolting issues it often provides me the opportunity to voice a contrary opinion. While it is certainly true that most of the routes over at Vantage could be toproped, and the entire area restricted to toprope climbing, I for one am certainly glad that's not the case. Most of the rock at the top of the entablature is decidedly less than sound, which at least to my mind makes it unsuitable for establishing any sort of permanent anchor that you'll be entrusting your life to. Not to mention the fact that having lots of folks milling about at the top of the mesa would present quite a rockfall hazard for the climbers below. And further, more traffic on the mesa-tops means more damage to the landscape up there that we're all supposed to be concerned about preserving in order to maintain our access to that crag. Perhaps there is an exception or two out there, but it's generally not the bolts, but rather the impact on the landscape around the crags that imperils access. More bolts generally bring more climbers, but that's certainly not always the case. Eldorado Canyon is hardly a sporto-area but probably gets more climber days per year than any other area in the country. Thankfully the climbing community there has taken an active role in mitigating the the impact that they have on the park, and are no longer fretting about access to the crags contained within it. And lastly - on a side note - the opinion that toproping is equivalent to leading (be it sport, trad, ice, etc) while worth about as much as my own is not one that I'd encountered prior to logging on to this forum. An interesting perspective, but one that I would venture to say is restricted to a rather small pool of vocal advocates and not consistent with the views held by the overwhelming majority of climbers out there, and as such perhaps not the most constructive perspective when it comes to questions of new route development. quote: ...Also, them old scary routes...if you add additional bolts to "make it safer", than you destroy the character of the route. Hey - here's a point of agreement! Retro-bolting sucks and should not be tolerated. However, replacing old, mank fixed hardware is the shiznit and should be encouraged. If the route restoration posse that's forming on this site ever gets through chopping bolts and turns their attention to replacing questionable fixed gear, I'd be happy to contribute to their efforts. Hopefully the members of the self-anointed old-school will at least concede that it's okay to replace rotting 1/4" bolts with solid hardware. Believe it or not, I actually ran into a guy once who was vehemently opposed to replacing the ultra-mank, fatigued, and corroded baby-angles that proliferate in the Garden of the Gods with reliable, modern hardware. In interesting perspective, to be sure, and while one can rightly salute is zeal and machismo, I would contest that his opinion is not one that the rest of us should be olbiged to cater to. And finally - to the actual question about bolts. I think that mattp pretty much had it right. In general, I think that if the section of rock is unprotectable by other means then a bolt is the right solution. The only other caveat I would add is that one should consider local traditions and ethics before doing so. To use two polar opposites the point, at a place like Shelf Road its a safe bet that you could put a bolt anywhere you like (on a new route) and not offend anyone, while at Turkey Rocks or other areas nearby a new bolt anywhere would be viewed as an abomination, the old-school alarm claxons would ring throughout the front range, and the bolt would be and chopped within a week, if not sooner. Just as an example of considering local ethics/traditions - at a crag near my former home in Colorado Springs, there was a small, obscure crag with a belay-station that seemed like a good candidate for a permanent anchor. Several lines converged there and many of them were frequently top-roped, with the anchor generally being accesed by means of an exposed traverse. If you led the routes, it'd be much safer and more convenient to rap off, not to mention the fact that you'd be on and off the route much more quickly, allowing more groups to access the routes during any given day. However, I noted the general paucity of bolts at the crag and the fact that folks had been climbing there for quite a while without such an anchor and decided against it. A good solution might have been to set up a swaged stainless-steel and chain "runner" to serve in the place of the rat's nest of corroding nylon that often collected there - a more or less permanent but non-bolted anchor. Seems like a good compromise that might work elsewhere. [ 04-24-2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: JayB ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightfly Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I found this one intreresting so i thought I would putin my 2 cents and let folks know what is going on in my neighbor hood. We have a local crag. it's chossy buy it is all we have that's close. it is a crag. we have an individual i will call him --- rockhead. rock head has climbed for two years. I will give him props that he has a lot of energy but he has little experince base. rockhead, bolt ladders up routes with his bosh. bathooking his way up and leaving a nice dotted line of holes behind him. throwing a nice 1/2 incher in every three feet. natural gear abounds throughout his lines but your will find a shinny hanger next to a bomer nut or cam every time. rockhead defense is that the place is a chosspile, and that no natural gear can be trusted, however, he has hardly any experince with the sandstone with which he is dealing with let alone places like the Fisher Towers or Black Canyon that are far worse. He says he is bolting these hard climbs-(5.11-5.12) on lead and that this is in good style, but in fact by aiding things first and placing bolts as he goes he is sandbagging clips and putting anchors in the wrong places. Now here is the crux of things,as climbing in our area it starting to take hold and become more popular. newbies are climbing these routes and thinkng that this is how things are done. Now as this mindset like a virus spreads and these kids disperse to other areas and there own "new area" they hang some shiny clips in some old man backyard. He calls the forest service to complain and then one day that forest service manager becomes head forest service manager, Now that's a bummer for us all. If you can't do it without bolts leave it for someone who can. That person will eventually come along. In the process you are preserving a resources for future generations. Bolting next to natural gear even on sport routes/areas is not the direction we want our sport to go. As a community we need to help shape the future. Just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 This is Gaper_#1, Crackbolter, you have not volunteered any time in placing bolts that are no longer safe however you think that putting in new lines is ok? Perhaps that is not the case. I will only be replacing old crap to make things non deathlike out there. I will be carrying a hand drill as I will never own a bosch (do you carry your bosch in the mtns?). I have seen 3 places that can use new bolts. I will not do the shame job like on Orbit by putting in supplementary bolt and leaving the old one. That is not the way to do these things. I think you must target your bolting projects wisely and think. We all know where they belong and dont belong. It's up to you to leave the adventure and not turn our mountains into some of the examples we have in Europe. For all who think otherwise then just go to the gym and stay there I say. Gaper_#1 Has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Erik - I don't think it is bullshit to hope that sport climbers or inexperienced climbers may gain a broader perspective from venturing into the alpine realm, and on Ingalls Peak they may see that there is another way to approach rock climbing. And Gaper, I know you didn't say this, but it almost sounded as if you just suggested that climbers coming out of a gym or sport climbing background are beyond salvation. I don't agree. I'm not saying that I would support the modification of existing climbs for this purpose; I'm just thinking that now that they are in, maybe some good could come from leaving those particular bolts on Ingalls Peak in place. I wouldn't have supported the installation of belay/rap bolts just for the sake of making the S. Face an inviting climb for the inexperienced, and I agree that the scenic and relatively pristine nature of that peak are degraded by the placement of a bolt belay next to a crack. Like you, I also believe that climbers should not be "trained" to expect to find belay bolts everywhere they go. If someone takes it upon themself to remove those bolts, I hope they can do a clean job of it and I hope they won't stir up a lot of animosity in the process. Because Ingalls Peak is a frequent destination for organized groups like the mountaineers, the person who contemplates this might also consider sending polite letters to such organizations, suggesting they inform their trip leaders that there will no longer be fixed anchors on the route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 This is Gaper_#1, Mattp, I did nothing to say about indoor climbers are not welcome outdoors or beyond salvation. You said that. I say keep climbing smaller things until you are ready for the larger goals. If you fail come back again and learn from it. Having convenience bolts is not an excuse for skills! I have gained my skills through trial and error. Many failures and gaping lead to better decisions and mountaineering know how. I gaped on sport routes and was bored quickly. I bought a gaper rack of hexes and learned by myself. The painful and also rewarding process was a long one but more respectful as now some of those old climbs I did are now "Safe" with bolts. This is a shame. If you are not ready go home until you are. You must learn to be resourcefull and determined. Lowering these mountains to someone's standard is not the right way. Think about these lame excuses I am hearing. If they are not ready for Ingalls let them try a smaller less technical mountain or be ready to face it on real terms. Saying just because they are already installed and leave them is just a feeble argument and a silent nod of your head to these people to "keep on bolting", that was acceptable. You know this is true. Gaper_#1 Has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 maat, i agree with you completly.... probably came off sounding a little abrasive....though my point(probably lost in my rambling) is that to venture into the mtns without the proper skillz is a mistake....sure we all have made that mistake, as the learning curve sometimes tends to be steep...... but it is OUR OWN RESPONSIBILTY to make sure that we are as safe as possible and i believe this is acheived through personal enrichment. at the same time it is the responsibilty for everyone to protect the resources that we all love and enjoy.....bolting does neither of these two things...... and matt you are right again about stating that if these installations were removed that proper notifaction should be made to user groups expecting these bolts to be there....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by chucK: Where is this walkoff? Are you trying to be coy or not ruin others' wilderness climb by giving the beta? So what do you want Nelson to put in his update? "Don't rap from the obvious bolts. Go some other way. I'm not saying where." check look down at the route and then head skiers right, down slabs.....you will drop into the drainage that the south face splts......work your way down the slabs and broken rock till you can traverse back to the base of the route....if you even give it a little baby try you will find the way...... hard to rap down with no rope...had to find my own way down...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mattp: Because Ingalls Peak is a frequent destination for organized groups like the mountaineers, the person who contemplates this might also consider sending polite letters to such organizations, suggesting they inform their trip leaders that there will no longer be fixed anchors on the route. How about just posting here on CC.com complete with snaps from the crowbar party? Crowbar pose, crows, and prose. There is precedent. [ 04-24-2002, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: chucK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Gaper_#1: Saying just because they are already installed and leave them is just a feeble argument and a silent nod of your head to these people to "keep on bolting", that was acceptable. You know this is true. I don't "know" this is true. If you don't remove them, there is certainly some danger that such inaction could be interpreted as acceptance of the practice, but it could be interpreted as something else - laziness, a desire not to engage in conflict, a desire to engage in discussion before taking further action to alter the rock... There are too many human variables involved and neither you nor I can tell in advance how our actions or inactions will be viewed by others. I understand why you may feel compelled to remove them. If you do, I hope you will try to do it in a non-confrontational and clean manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 This is Gaper_#1, mattp, you know what is right. Silence is a form of subtle acceptance instead of criticism. Removing bolts is a message to be sent to the bolters "this was bad, dont do this again please". Discussion is criticism however actions speak louder than words no? Sometimes actions are needed. I did not say I was going to remove them (I think about it) but I don't think that some bolts are in the best interest of our fellow mountain climbers. Maybe they will have their 10 essentials but they may still not have the 11th essential which is a combination of skills and readiness for the unknown. Maybe the mountaineers should be taught this? Or maybe this is a lesson in life? We must draw the line and or create controversy in order to send these positive messages I speak of. If we do not then the mountaineering experiences and challenges are not quite what they should be. If someone removes them bolts maybe they should send the message but I doubt this will happen. I say be like the boy scouts say "Be prepared". Mattp, you are supposed to be big non gaper climber. Where is your sense of adventure and how can you condone actions like bolting in the mountains when it is not necessary. How can the mountaineers say leave no trace is a taught ethic if they are accepting leaving of unnecessary bolts? This is wrong. Perhaps if the mountaineers cannot climb it without the bolts they should schedule another mountain that they are ready for? Gaper_#1 Has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackbolter Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 "but it is OUR OWN RESPONSIBILTY to make sure that we are as safe as possible and i believe this is acheived through personal enrichment. at the same time it is the responsibilty for everyone to protect the resources that we all love and enjoy.....bolting does neither of these two things......" Sorry, this does not mean anything if I am the party who happens to be in the vacinity and is responsible for some form of aid if your party gets hurt. I don't like blood and I avoid epic disasters caused by other people. This may be selfish but hey...aren't we all! Bolts simply make things safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 This is Gaper_#1, Crackbolter, personal safety is gained through experience and judgment calls. Back off or don't do the route if it is not safe for you. Aiding and injured climber is very good. Please help all injured or epicing climbers I say. I would help others in my super gaper technique to aid anyone in need of help. Let this be known. Bolting does create crowds to easily climbed and accessed routes indeed. This it true. No judgement or major experience is needed. The only thing that makes things safe is experience or intelligent and sound judgement. I can still die on a bolted 5.1! Gaper_#1 Has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Sorry, Gaper, but I disagree. The past results of removing offensive bolts have been inconclusive. Think about the bolting/removal/reboltling/flattening/straightening of Whipsaw at Vantage – I think this took place over ten years ago. Did this send a "clear message" that bolting at the Coulee would not be tolerated? Did it do anything to stem the tide over there? I think not. I'm not saying I'm against the removal of those bolts on Ingalls Peak – I just hope that such an action would be undertaken in a thoughtful manner and the rationale behind such action communicated in a manner that may actually convince somebody of something other than that the guy (or gal) who removes the bolts is willing to be confrontational. Just to be clear: I don't condone the addition of belay/rappel bolts where they would appear to be absolutely unnecessary. I deliberately use the phrase "appear to be" because I can't imagine why they should be there, but then again I haven't gone up there to inspect and I haven't had the opportunity to discuss the reason for those bolts with the person who installed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 My alpine problem bolts are on the Grimface to Matriarch traverse in Cathedral Park BC. There is a good topo in Beckey guide. What it doesnt show are about 10 bolts out of 14 on the route which are totally unnecessary. some are on 3rd/4th class slabs. Some are right next to good anchor cracks. There are 4 bolts on route which do make sense (two for aid and two at a rap station with no natural anchor) but the rest were placed by an unnamed Penticton guide so that he could guide the traverse without placing gear, as near as i can tell. if i ever go back there i will go with a wrench and remove the offending hangars and make sure the bolts are nailed in and unusable (7 hr hike is a long way to carry a crowbar). that said bolts next to (within reaching distance of) protectable cracks or holes or pockets is the only thing I have a problem with, that and bolts so close together you trip over them and it breaks your rhythm to clip. generally speaking i cant see a difference bwetween bolts placed on lead or rappel except that if you fall off bolting on lead with the power drill you borrowed from a friend and wreck it he probably will be drinking your beer forever ps if you think rappel bolted climbs aren't bold i have a few for you to get on they are all 5.9 or easier no matter what number is in the guidebook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Ditto what Gaper_#1 said. Crack-dude, thinking that "...bolts make it safe..." leads to a false sense of security on any route. Also, this attitude lures less competent climbers to move beyond their abilities because they think it is "safe"; they are relying on the bolts not their ability to guarantee their safety on the route. Climbing is not a "safety" sport; climbing is about accepting a certain amount of risk based on your comfort level, competence, and past experience. Less competent climbers may assume that there is less of a risk than there really is simply because there are bolts on the route. This can, and does, lead to trouble. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I will bolt a giant bong to Muir Hut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 You're not a sport smoker, are you? Think about it, do you really need to rely on that crutch? Why can't you just smoke that stuff the old way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackbolter Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 "Remember when sex was safe and climbing was dangerous?" Don't tell me that you will always climb routes within your on-sight ability. You slowly progress through the numbers and letters. Many people did this with bolted lines at Vantage and North Bend and Leavenworth and top roped the cracks. This is normal play around here. Some of us were lucky enough to have a ropegun partner to climb with in the early days of our career. This meant that I had to stop and claen what he plugged in or clipped. It helped me move through the grades faster than most people. Some people have to work with partners at their own level and progress slower. This is a slow progress. It seems that there is more appeal to climb with natural protection than with bolts. It is worthwhile to support the environmentalist view and just ban all bolting so we can start this whole thing all over again or should we leave the ethics of the wilderness to the individual communities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 This is Gaper_#1, Quoted-The past results of removing offensive bolts have been inconclusive. No more quotes They may seem inconclusive to you but I believe there is a message sent. Some people are as stubborn as others. This replacing of removed or chopped bolts is a war in it's classic personal sense. He who is more persistant will win and send this message. I dont know of this route... All I know is that it more than likely touched personal nerves on the bolters side to put in a good line and they did not think about the "restorers" intentions or motives. They simply said "someone chopped my route! I must fix it it is unsafe. We must have this route." This last sentence is rarely arguable no?. The coulee is maintained or bolted by large numbers with bolt drills that are artificially powered. I think that explains a lot. What I do know it this- There seems to be a great group of climbers upset with the deeds or "good" that have been done out there these days. These good deeds may not be good. It boils down to deciphering what is necessary and what is not. We have no group or party to tell us this only our own morals to question day after day. Again mattp your argument is weak. It is much easier for the bolter to place them again than it is to remove bolts. It may always be that way due to technology. There is little doubt here..... Just because the bolts reappear does not mean they are the right thing to do! It means someone is mad and persistant. That is easy to determine. What I am saying here is that what about the unthoughtful manner of these bolters?!!!!!!!! So little thought so easy to do with power drills. I think a group of silent climbers is in order to discuss removal (not specific about which ones at this point is in necessary) if ill placed bolts. Gaper_#1 Has spoken. [ 04-24-2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Gaper_#1 ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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