backcountrydog Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 not trying to flame u Rumr cause at times i think that approach works...however on iron horse, that pin has been there and used for years. it wasnt a public disgrace (to my knowledge), it was there for a reason. if the looter has never free climbed iron horse and/or was just taking it to get a free pin, i think the 'just do it quietly' approach doesnt work. plus, the pin MAY have been replaced and yanked again. its been there for many years and served a good purpose and 1 person decided they didnt want it there pulled it. did this person free it and wanted less metal in the crack? i can buy that if so. but if the person has climbed iron horse a thousand times and doesnt even have to place gear from the stance to the anchors, im not sure that the removal was for the greater good. or if the person doesnt even do the climb free, but can do C1, i dont think its for the greater good...my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 If it's not your route don't phuk with it!!!!!! It's totaly unacceptable to alter an established route!!! If you don't like the routes going in ,PUT UP YOUR OWN PHUK'N ROUTES!!!! Than I will have more routes to climb and everyone is happy....except for the hasbeens and neverwas climbers that like to Think about it, if you really like to climb ...you just climb you don't about ethics BS Phuk'n give me a break! I'm a DICK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 not trying to flame u Rumr cause at times i think that approach works...however on iron horse, that pin has been there and used for years. it wasnt a public disgrace (to my knowledge), it was there for a reason. if the looter has never free climbed iron horse and/or was just taking it to get a free pin, i think the 'just do it quietly' approach doesnt work. plus, the pin MAY have been replaced and yanked again. Â why not bolt it then? it'll do more damage smashing in a piton once a year (until the is a yellow TCU) than putting in a bolt. I would say that if it keeps getting yanked out, either do without or put something permanent in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 I pretty much agree with the "don't mess withthings viewpoint." I am not sure why soemone took the pins on Iron Horse, they had been in place pretty much constantly (with a few exceptions in recent years) since I first climbed at the Town Walls. As far as the upper pin (bottom of V slot) the last few times I was on the pitch the pin was definately cracked. I am not sure if it would have held much of a fall. Pins seem to get stolen at Index with a disconcerting frequency. There use to be a FP a bit higher as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwalling Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 I an aid climber and I don't even steal pins on free routes. Anyone who does is a Jerk! Rot in Hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Cool down kids. mabe they just fell out or someone fell and one came out. peace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Richard Noggin raised a good question in this thread, something we talked about at Pub Club last week too. Â Does all the spray here at cc.com turn off climbers developing new rock routes? Are we missing out on opportunities to know about these routes because these folks get hammered every time they post? Â Any constructive ideas about how to warm them back up to this site? Â I sure hate to see the majority of PacNW climbers lose out on this info based on the actions of a few loud mouths. Â "i am unwilling to post details of new routes for fear someone will criticise me" = 1) "i am insecure and only want people to praise me" or 2) "i recognize at some level there is something wrong with the route or style and therefore choose not to let people know about it because they will highlight this ethical void i am trying to ignore" Â No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Dru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 The reason climbers put down routes and route setters on this site..in responce to DRU A... I can't climb $#!T so it makes me feel better to put down route setters B...I use to climb but now I gained 80 pounds don't climb anymore and became a moderator on www. cascade wankers .com because of my inadequacy C...I am one of the five people that post on cascade wankers .com and I have 20+ avatars I am too busy spraying to climb enought to know a good route. D...I would not know a good route from a bad route because I am a TOP ROPER and would not know a clip stance if it was in my face. E... all of the above, because I am a regular poster on cascade wankers .com with over 1000 posts Spray'n ethics at the crag is the easyest way to wind up without a belay You guys crack me up I'm a DICK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 you hard man you, dick  just think how much suffering the fucker will feel when his or her route is listed in a guidebook and the guidebook author lists it as "a contrived overbolted choss heap"  having someone criticize route online will pale by comparison cause you can't defend yourself in a guidebook whatever the author says goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Yeah, I took some heat in THE NEW SMITH ROCKS GUIDE , lemme see if I can find it here....Ah! There we go: Â " A contrived line, this route would have been better left undone". Â Fortunately, it was chopped by some Good Samaritan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Kurt, the problem w/ this approach is varying levels of comfort while leading regardless of one's actual capabilities... I have several friends that can boulder in the v9 range but are very uncomfortable leading much harder than 10's and that's on sport routes...  So how are you going to benchmark "comfort" for respective grades and leaders???   Rudy, I’m well aware that the criteria I’ve set out are not something you can put a yardstick up against. If one person says a route is overbolted, well I guess you can take that with a grain of salt; however if a lot of people say a route is overbolted then there may be something to that. In the case of the route I gave as an example everyone I know who’s climbed the route says it’s overbolted.  As far as someone being really good at bouldering; well that’s what they’re good at, and if they can’t lead a multipitch 5.10 then they aren’t a 5.10 climber despite the fact that they’re really talented at bouldering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 In the end, I'd say consensus should rule. You can't please everyone, but, especially in a cragging setting, you can (and should) try to please most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 AlpineK,  What do you expect is going to happen as a result of your complaints?  I'll bet nothing at all.  Why don't you go chop what you disagree with? You can then show the purpouse of your efforts by climbing the same routes without the unnecessary bolts.  Just be sure to plug the holes with epoxy and take some sand and cover the epoxy up so it looks natural.  There are a lot of routes out there, some need some improvement. Please either put in your time fixing the problem or quit complaining.  CrackB, The only time I climbed Condor we skipped at least every other bolt, and we only belayed at every other station. As far as what’s going to happen well not much directly, but I wont be climbing the route again, and if anyone asks me about the route I’ll tell them that it’s overbolted. That’s really too bad since the situation of the route and the quality of the rock would otherwise make the route a multi-star climb that I would repeat and recommend.  Chopping sounds like work, and I have better things to do with my spare time; in addition I’m doubtful that I could do a good job chopping the bolts that I don’t agree with.  What I would like to see happen as a result of my complaints is that folks who set routes put more thought into bolting. I don’t agree with people like Pope, but I do think that too many bolts are a bad thing and detract form the overall character of a route. Also overbolting give ammunition to people like Pope and gives them a bigger soapbox to stand on.  As far as rubbing salt in a wound by bringing up the name of a route and a route setter, well too bad. The route setter chose to make a public statement with his route. If he were an architect or a playwright critics would review his work. If they didn’t like it they would say so publicly. Nobody would be telling the critic that he couldn’t say anything because the artist or whatever had put a lot of effort into his project and loved it like his wife.  I’m with you route setters when you say that people like Pope and Dwayner create a hostile environment that you don't want to be involved in, but when you are obviously unwilling to take mild criticism that’s when you loose me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 you hard man you, dick just think how much suffering the fucker will feel when his or her route is listed in a guidebook and the guidebook author lists it as "a contrived overbolted choss heap"  Dude your tak'n about my favorite route, I'ts a classic over bolted choss heap......One mans choss is another mans classic. I'm glad you did not take my post personal I'ts fun to be a DICK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Funny ...everyone I have talked to in the real world loved it...in so many words it was called a, don't worry be happy route.Some say it Let me see... there is room for more of that multi pitch stuff to be had in Leavenworth .  Why don't the nay sayers put up their own classics...oh yeah, that would take work and money!  Don't you realize route setters skip their own bolts maybe it's not just about them  Dick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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