Peter_Puget Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I just spent a few minutes looking over the new WA Ice Guide. For the first time I saw the ratings of some climbs I did in the 80s. One of the easiest rate routes is in my memory way harder than all of the more difficult rated routes. It seems to me that 80% of the climbers must be in the WI4/5 range? Is that right? It also seems as that ratings don't mean much ice climbing. So the question is: When you are on a trip how do you decide what you can climb? Is it mostly current ice conditions? Availability of Protection? How do ratings play into it all? I have no interest in ice climbing but the guide almost enticed me into buying some new tools! It looks really nice! PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I look at the climb and decide from there. I'll use the guidebook rating as a general reference, but a chandaliered WI4 w/shrooms is way harder than a plastic wi5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 It seems to me that 80% of the climbers must be in the WI4/5 range? Is that right? It also seems as that ratings don't mean much ice climbing. I dont know if you meant to ask whether 80% of climbs are in the 4/5 range, but thats likely true in WA. I dont agree that ratings dont mean much in ice climbing, but they are much more difficult to nail down becuase the medium is so changable When you are on a trip how do you decide what you can climb? Is it mostly current ice conditions? Availability of Protection? How do ratings play into it all? Ratings most often reflect a combination of strenuousness/exertion and protectability. Therefore, a WI3 is less strenuous and most likely better protected than a WI4. The best way to evluate whether you should try a route is to approach it, check it out, and decide then and there. The ratings at best give you some idea of what you might expect, in normal conditions (though there is no such thing as normal conditions). In many ways ice climbing is easier than rock climbing, but ice leading is much harder. The ability to evaluate a given route and get a feel for what ratings might mean for you comes from many seasons (typically) on ice, backing off alot, hopefully staying whole. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 If I get pumped and fall off it's WI5 If I get pumped but don't fall it's a WI4+ If I'm scared but not pumped its a WI4 If neither scared nor pumped its WI3 If I feel like I'm hiking its WI2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billygoat Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 So, WI1 is ice skating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jja Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 PP, Pure ice climbing is easy. So I'd say you're right 80% of climbers are in the 4/5 range - if by that you mean able to get up the climb. Leading an ice climb is a whole nuther thing. Unlike rock (for the most part), the difference between tr'ing a pitch and leading a pitch on ice is more than mental. Placing pro on ice is a chore, and requires good technique on the steeps to avoid getting pumped. So I guess I'd say 80% of climbers lead in the 3/4 instead of 4/5 range. When I'm looking for a climb I look for 4's to lead when I think the ice is "good". If it's brittle, really thin, rotten, aerated, or dinner plating 2+ scares the hell out of me. So I guess I look at wi ratings as a starting point, they give an indication of how hard a climb is in "typical" conditions. I then adjust up or down (usually down in my case) depending on the other factors you mention. Go ahead and buy those tools!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jja Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Forget everything I wrote, this is the answer: If I get pumped and fall off it's WI5 If I get pumped but don't fall it's a WI4+ If I'm scared but not pumped its a WI4 If neither scared nor pumped its WI3 If I feel like I'm hiking its WI2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I like Dru's method, although I have never fallen on lead, and ratings don't count on top rope. If I'm pumped, scared, the best screws still suck, and there are no rests...then I call it a 5 If I'm pumped and scared but the screws are good I call it a 4+ If I'm pumped but not too scared it's a 4 If it looks cooler than a 3 then it's a 4- If I'm not pumped or scared it's a 3 WI2...? All of this is a factor of the sustained steepness and quality of the ice. Anything 80 degrees or less on good ice is WI3. 80 to 90, some level of WI4. Dead vertical for a sustained length, WI5. Many things feel dead vertical, but real dead vertical ice climbing feels overhanging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) But people call the Deeping Wall WI5, and it isn't vertical. Not to mention you essentially don't have to swing to get up it. I haven't done many rated ice climbs. But it does strike me as odd that a total newbie (myself) can hike "WI5" on TR. Edit: Lambone, how does climbing on a TR not count? Shouldn't it be the same as with rock climbing? A grade is a grade, no? Edited January 8, 2004 by cracked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 .Edit: Lambone, how does climbing on a TR not count? Shouldn't it be the same as with rock climbing? A grade is a grade, no? no Have you ever placed a screw leading on steep ice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 like Alex said above. The WI# ratings include protectability. You don't have to protect while top-roping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 It seems to me that 80% of the climbers must be in the WI4/5 range? Is that right? i dont believe it. i reckon most climb wi2-4. wi5 is pretty serious imho and i dont see too many people leading at that level. It also seems as that ratings don't mean much ice climbing. just look at the numbers. there are only a handful of numbers meant to depict a whole range of difficulty. compare that to rock climbing where there are dozens of number and letter combinations. but thats ice. it varies so much how can a narrow rating ever work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 .Edit: Lambone, how does climbing on a TR not count? Shouldn't it be the same as with rock climbing? A grade is a grade, no? no Have you ever placed a screw leading on steep ice? I've placed screws on lead, thought nothing that a hardman such as yourself would consider steep. But what if a guy goes out and solos Carl's Berg. It's rated WI5, and is in good condition. Did he just solo a WI5? According to you, no, because it was easier since he didn't have to place any pro. Likewise, if you place a screw every three feet, the climb will be harder than if you place pro every fifty feet. But it's the same climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 If you've ever been at the base of route that you'd follow but wouldn't be willing to lead (as I'm sure you have) then you've got your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 But people call the Deeping Wall WI5, and it isn't vertical. Not to mention you essentially don't have to swing to get up it. I haven't done many rated ice climbs. But it does strike me as odd that a total newbie (myself) can hike "WI5" on TR. Edit: Lambone, how does climbing on a TR not count? Shouldn't it be the same as with rock climbing? A grade is a grade, no? deepeing wall is more like 4/4+, but.... under normal conditions, i have climbed this thing when it felt like a spicy 5+. i have 2 grades in ice climbing: something i can lead or something i will not get on. i think more you climb, more clear this picture becomes for you. it's like in the movie "Pi", it's not the numbers -it's what between the numbers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 But what if a guy goes out and solos Carl's Berg. It's rated WI5, and is in good condition. Did he just solo a WI5? According to you, no, because it was easier since he didn't have to place any pro. Likewise, if you place a screw every three feet, the climb will be harder than if you place pro every fifty feet. But it's the same climb. protectability does not only refer to the placement of screws and the use of ropes. It also refers to the opportunities you have to manage your safety through your movement and use of tools and crampons. The quality of ice, the nature of the formations etc. all play into this aspect of difficulty. If you have a rope above you this is mainly irrelevant. Certainly not in all cases as there are circumstances when seconding can be as serious an effort as leading, but top-roping at Marble Canyon doesn't fall in that category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Cracked, Because no one gives a crap if you top-roped a WI5. Where as if you led it, you have full chestbeating privilages in the bar afterward. It's as simple as that. In response to lummox: wi5 is pretty serious imho and i dont see too many people leading at that level. Maybe in Washington or Lilooet you don't, but in many geographic regions WI5 is considered pretty moderate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I can't get into the bar, though. I think I'm beginning to see the light here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I see lots of Canadian people (but not me ) leading WI5 in Lillooet and quite a few Americans top roping it at Marble Canyon But almost no one in gorts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 You should be able to TR any pitch of ice if you are in descent shape and have some experience. A WI 5 top rope is about as impressive as doing a 5.8 tr in the gym. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 but pumpier WTF is "descent shape" -----> 8 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 But almost no one in gorts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Billygoat: So, WI1 is ice skating... I wholeheartedly agree! But people call the Deeping Wall WI5, and it isn't vertical. Not to mention you essentially don't have to swing to get up it. haven't done many rated ice climbs. But it does strike me as odd that a total newbie (myself) can hike "WI5" on TR. Deeping is WI5 if you lead it, and it isnt hooked out. Its especially heady if its cold and the ice is plating off onto your head. If you are hooking others placements, using their used screw holes, and taking the odd rest, it makes it much easier. I dont think its that unusual for strong climbers to TR 5s. At the beginning of any season, most ice climbers I know make it a point to TR a few days at the "practice areas" to build strength rapidly and get used to things again. When TRing, 4s get boring pretty quickly. But what if a guy goes out and solos Carl's Berg. It's rated WI5, and is in good condition. Did he just solo a WI5? According to you, no, because it was easier since he didn't have to place any pro. Cracked, frankly the semantics of your argument make you look rediculous. Of course in ice climbing just as in rock climbing it's easier AFA strenuousness to not rest and not place pro. Not many people do this however in regular practice on either medium. Learning to place pro efficiently on steep ground is difficult, because as you correctly guess, if you sew it up you might tire more quickly. However, just like in rock climbing, a sewed up route gives the leader confidence to push another 20 feet, whereas no pro might make someone wig out. Ice climbing is like aid climbing, it is very mental. Ice climbing is also like rock climbing, in that the principles behind why you place pro are the same. Not because you expect to fall, but because you'd like to not hit the ground/your belayer/etc if you do. Whatever our deficiencies as climbers, few of us really want to die that badly as to leave things to chance every outing and not place pro at all. Ice especially, because its often deemed a more unpredictable medium, requires protection for the sake of protocol. As for Carls Berg, I've seen Dave M. hike this route in 5+/6 conditions with maybe one or two good screws. He was climbing safely, too. I'd say that took a lot more skill than TRing it, even if he did effectively solo it. Lambone: Maybe in Washington or Lilooet you don't, but in many geographic regions WI5 is considered pretty moderate. I agree with 'bone. While alot of people here are not truly hiking 5s (myself included), if you go to an area where the season is consistent and you can get alot of days in, 5 becomes a fairly blasee rating. I met an 18 year old punk from Calgary one year at Rampart who was starting his second season on ice. He had just lead a notorious 6 that day. I asked him, envious, how it was that he was leading 6s at the start of his second year...after all, I (huff) had been climbing ice 15 years and was still trying to hike 5s. His answer was simple...It was December, but he had already had 30+ days on the ice that season. I would just forget the numbers and climb as much as possible and enjoy what you're doing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctorb Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 My tools are my belay. The rope and gear are for the second. WI5 is the standard for Canadian climbers, while WI4 is the standard for US climbers. Canadians climb ice at a higher level. And WI6 is like easy 5.9. Just ask Will Gadd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Maybe in Washington or Lilooet you don't, but in many geographic regions WI5 is considered pretty moderate. gradeflation. a picked out climb aint like a wierd shaped and smooth one. fat ice aint the same as thin and funky. i would say we have different ideas of what a wi5 is. many supposed wi5 climbs get hammered into wi3+-4 shape real quick. my opinion is that many trafficked ice climbs get upgraded cause of that 'one time back in the winter of 19??' when it was gnarly. can you say 'sea of vapors'? but if you need to inflate your sack with false numbers then whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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