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lummox

debate fodder: lots of new climbers

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So....is this a statement about ethics? yelrotflmao.gif

 

Stefan said:

This earth is big enough for everyone.

 

Some people who do not like bolting do something about it--they chop bolts and they have the freedom to do so.

 

Some people who like to bolt do something about it--they bolt and they have the freedom to do so.

 

Some people do not do anything and just write. They just rant on this website about ethics.

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pope said:

RuMR said:

POPE! Are you really concerned about chipping??? It just isn't a problem...it doesn't happen that much, it isn't supported in mainstream rags, it doesn't get you sponsored...

 

Are you a closet chipper? is this why this is such a concern for you? Seriously, i can think of about 20 chipped routes out of maybe 5000 routes that i've seen...

 

I'm not concerned about chipping, and I'm not a closet chipper. I just think it's time for sport climbing to evolve, and chipping seems like the future of your sport. Once you open your mind to it, I'm sure you'll agree. Remember, don't look back! laugh.gif

 

I posted a similar comment a while back about Ray Jardine's work on the Nose. He said that he felt the future of climbing was chipping. I disagree, but to each his own I guess. And RuMR, isn't "Churning" the most chipped route at Smith? Chipping sucks, IMHO. Let a newer generation get it.

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RuMR said:

Looking back is screwed when you have your gold colored nostalgia visor on lockdown...

 

I don't think you'll have anything to worry about regarding chipping...just not gonna be a problem...

 

rumr the new 2003 nostalgia visor is also available pink for whiny pussies and avocado green for those who couldn't get enough living in the past with the gold version.

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I doubt that...Two huge proponents of Yosemite style climbing went to Europe and came back somewhat "altered" in their views in the early 80's...then Mr. Moffat came over here and took the traditional climbing scene apart...then Mr. Karrigan came over and did it again...

 

The two climbers woulda been a certain Mr. Kauk and Ms. Hill...specifically they went to see what all the hullaboo was about and came back convinced that there were other valid ways of approaching climbing...

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olyclimber said:

So....is this a statement about ethics? yelrotflmao.gif

 

Stefan said:

This earth is big enough for everyone.

 

Some people who do not like bolting do something about it--they chop bolts and they have the freedom to do so.

 

Some people who like to bolt do something about it--they bolt and they have the freedom to do so.

 

Some people do not do anything and just write. They just rant on this website about ethics.

 

I am a person who does not do anything!

 

Well....I just climb.

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minx said:

RuMR said:

Looking back is screwed when you have your gold colored nostalgia visor on lockdown...

 

I don't think you'll have anything to worry about regarding chipping...just not gonna be a problem...

 

rumr the new 2003 nostalgia visor is also available pink for whiny pussies and avocado green for those who couldn't get enough living in the past with the gold version.

 

OMFG!! YOU'RE FUNNY!!!!!

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Churning has two chiseled pockets...bad form, i agree...that is one of my twenty routes i referenced...there are a couple at index and a few more at smith, and 1 (since restored) at si and 1 (since restored) at the new...

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AlpineK said:

CHIPPING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A DEBATE ON BOLTING madgo_ron.gif

 

You're just trying to shift the subject.

 

PS I don't mind if you change the subject to Molly Ringwald now and then though.

 

Based on the reaction of RuMr, AlpineK, Distel and the gang, I get the impression that chipping might just offend you. But I'm here to tell you that everything you've said to justify bolts lends itself perfectly to the justification of chipping. Spooky, isn't it? I don't want to talk about chipping, I just want you to look at bolting one more time and ask yourself, "Just what the Hell am I defending here?", followed by, "How valid can my arguments be if they perfectly transfer to the defense of something as dastardly as chipping?"

 

Now I'm going hiking. Alpine, I'll get some Molly up for you later. Peace out my brothers.

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No pope...it doesn't...

 

Chipping reduces physical difficulty

Bolting reduces danger...

 

Unrelated...

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RuMR said:

No pope...it doesn't...

 

Chipping reduces physical difficulty

Bolting reduces danger...

 

Unrelated...

 

But what about a bolt ladder?

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RuMR said:

No pope...it doesn't...

 

Chipping reduces physical difficulty

Bolting reduces danger...

 

Unrelated...

 

I could red point the Bachar Yerian with about 20 bolts on which to pull and cheat and rehearse while I "prepare to send". In its current condition, you need to have 5.12 ability to scale this monument to honest climbing.

 

You see, adding bolts brings a climb physically within the realm of mediocre climbers.

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No...the bolts did not change one move physically...its in your brain...the thing is still 5.11...if you can onsight 100% of the 5.11's of that style, then you could pull off that route...

 

People are not willing to risk serious injury or death on a gamble that they will pick the right line and the right sequences even at 5.10...

 

So, your argument is that the gamble is reduced, not the difficulty...

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WTF!? You think I condone chipping!?

 

HHHEEELLLLL NNNNOOOOOO

 

If you can't climb it, get stronger!!!!!! bolts are a safety issue, not a making a climb easier issue like chipping is!!!!

 

FUCK chipping! no more chipping talk on this thread!

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RuMR said:

No...the bolts did not change one move physically...its in your brain...the thing is still 5.11...if you can onsight 100% of the 5.11's of that style, then you could pull off that route...

 

People are not willing to risk serious injury or death on a gamble that they will pick the right line and the right sequences even at 5.10...

 

So, your argument is that the gamble is reduced, not the difficulty...

 

If you are capable of 5.12 or better, you are prepared for the Bachar Yerian. If you can't climb those grades, you'll need more bolts. You can climb out of control, with more abandon and confidence, you can risk trying a move that you might not really be ready for. In short, you can be a physically weaker climber and climb a heavily bolted route for a given grade.

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This is only an attempt by Pope to show what a badass he is and how morally corrupt the new generation of climbers are...its pointless though, cuz 95% of sportclimbers agree w/ a no chipping stance...

 

Ahh...the past looks so sweet w/ that rosy golden hue and the future looks GREEN! wave.gif

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pope said:

RuMR said:

No...the bolts did not change one move physically...its in your brain...the thing is still 5.11...if you can onsight 100% of the 5.11's of that style, then you could pull off that route...

 

People are not willing to risk serious injury or death on a gamble that they will pick the right line and the right sequences even at 5.10...

 

So, your argument is that the gamble is reduced, not the difficulty...

 

If you are capable of 5.12 or better, you are prepared for the Bachar Yerian. If you can't climb those grades, you'll need more bolts. You can climb out of control, with more abandon and confidence, you can risk trying a move that you might not really be ready for. In short, you can be a physically weaker climber and climb a heavily bolted route for a given grade.

 

Why use any pro at all then pope?? Why? Why do you get to decide how much is just enough??? THisiz a stupid stance...

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Pope-

Your bolt-pulling arguments sound eeriliy similar:

 

"If you don't like it, climb some other place."

 

"Don't impose your beliefs on me."

 

"The damage caused by my actions are miniscule compared to other climbing practices."

 

"Climbing must move forward to something more noble."

 

"Just as you did, I'm entitled to alter the rock as per my vision."

 

But not: "There's room for every style or crag: Sport, trad, alpine, ...it's all good."

 

"The best climbers don't need your stinking bolts."

 

"Climbing without bolts is called adventgure. Ever hear of adventure?"

 

"You should tolerate my pulling these bolts. It's not like there is a group of bolt pullers waiting to erase Smith Rock."

 

"You guys who don't climb without bolts are just weak hearted. You feel threatened by the genuine technical competence."

 

"Sure pulling bolts is altering the climb, but the rock was already already altered when they went in. What's the big deal? I'm just restoring a little more naturalness to the crag."

 

But lastly, you rest it all on this assertion:

 

"I may be out of tune with 90% of today's climbers, but I tell you I'm right and all of you are wrong ."

 

How could you defend your practices with arguments that sound like they could be used to defend such a vile practice as chipping?

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RuMR said:

pope said:

RuMR said:

No...the bolts did not change one move physically...its in your brain...the thing is still 5.11...if you can onsight 100% of the 5.11's of that style, then you could pull off that route...

 

People are not willing to risk serious injury or death on a gamble that they will pick the right line and the right sequences even at 5.10...

 

So, your argument is that the gamble is reduced, not the difficulty...

 

If you are capable of 5.12 or better, you are prepared for the Bachar Yerian. If you can't climb those grades, you'll need more bolts. You can climb out of control, with more abandon and confidence, you can risk trying a move that you might not really be ready for. In short, you can be a physically weaker climber and climb a heavily bolted route for a given grade.

 

Why use any pro at all then pope?? Why? Why do you get to decide how much is just enough??? THisiz a stupid stance...

 

Now wait a minute, you're the guy always accusing me of being Captain Hyperbole! laugh.gif

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pope said:

RuMR said:

pope said:

RuMR said:

No...the bolts did not change one move physically...its in your brain...the thing is still 5.11...if you can onsight 100% of the 5.11's of that style, then you could pull off that route...

 

People are not willing to risk serious injury or death on a gamble that they will pick the right line and the right sequences even at 5.10...

 

So, your argument is that the gamble is reduced, not the difficulty...

 

If you are capable of 5.12 or better, you are prepared for the Bachar Yerian. If you can't climb those grades, you'll need more bolts. You can climb out of control, with more abandon and confidence, you can risk trying a move that you might not really be ready for. In short, you can be a physically weaker climber and climb a heavily bolted route for a given grade.

 

Why use any pro at all then pope?? Why? Why do you get to decide how much is just enough??? THisiz a stupid stance...

 

Now wait a minute, you're the guy always accusing me of being Captain Hyperbole! laugh.gif

Touche`!

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more than 225 new posts since I left for work this morning? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Sorry, I just had to get that out. Is it time to move this monster to Spray? Will this surpass Muir on Saturday? Is this like what happens when it's raining like hell and you're on the freeway doing about 70 right behind some huge semi? Power Spray?

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I don't think it is total spray yet, Off, because there is enough inherent interest in the underlying topic that we keep returning to it, but we could probably take it to hyper-spray without too much trouble.

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Off_White,

The measure of posts since you left for work as "large" is only your own subjective experience. Philosophy was covered in the thread 20 posts or so ago, and semantics is scheduled yet. We are now on boyish name calling. Please get it together, Stinkypants!

 

Anyway, on the on same lines of bolting and not bolting....

Can you use the same argument (bolting makes climbing falsely easier, and lowers standards of climbing) on trails?

Should we get rid of all trails because they making traveling in the Parks and Wilderness areas easier,more accessible, and just gumming up these areas with newbies who have no business being there? Huh? Huh? Answer! yellaf.gif

 

Off_White said:

more than 225 new posts since I left for work this morning? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Sorry, I just had to get that out. Is it time to move this monster to Spray? Will this surpass Muir on Saturday? Is this like what happens when it's raining like hell and you're on the freeway doing about 70 right behind some huge semi? Power Spray?

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