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lummox

debate fodder: lots of new climbers

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here is nothing "ethical" about trying to impose your ideas of style and aesthetics upon others

 

i am not doing that... merely providing social commentary about the lack of concrete ethics... i am not proposing unified ethics persay but i am suggesting that people fess up and tell me their ethical systems if they wanna bash mine. whisy washy situational ethics is a cop-out. again, i am not forcing or even suggesting my views on anyone. god forbid i do that in today's PC world.

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Don't presume to be telling others that they lack ethics...they lack YOUR ethics...there is a difference, scott...

 

and don't be telling me my ethics "change"...i'll feel the way i do about most stuff about the same most every time...

Edited by RuMR

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I think this horse is dead. Lets move on to a topic that's easier to talk about. Peace in the Middle East: What are your thoughts? Who is right? Palestine or Isreal? fruit.gif

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RuMR said:

Don't presume to be telling others that they lack ethics...they lack YOUR ethics...there is a difference, scott...

 

i didnt' say that... read the next sentence

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There is nothing about true "situation ethics" that says they only apply when they are not in your way.

 

really? is that true? what is th point of situational ethics then...

 

 

later kids i am off to a lunch date... it was lovely haveing this chat with you. rumr... lets go climbing when i get back!

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So your ethics are "ala locke" and "Moses", eh? Based on some vague notion of improving yourself and the rest of the world? I wanna see them stone tablets, man!

 

Where's MtnGoat when you need him? I think I'm done with this thread. Have fun! wave.gif

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This is cool, Oly. Situation ethics? Integrated ethics? I feel young - just like I'm back in philosophy 101 in college once again. We can debate about the Middle East at pubclub tonight but meanwhile we have these "great issues" to pursue....

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scott_harpell said:

was lovely haveing this chat with you. rumr... lets go climbing when i get back!

 

anytime...just keep your sticky fingers off my gear yellaf.gifyellaf.gifyellaf.gifyellaf.gifyellaf.gif...bolts or cracks????

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Let's get down to brass tacks here. The notion of the 'self' and the 'other' are subjective experiences. Your phenomenology are essentially a study of emotions. Ethical contructs, while real to the 'self', are emotional by nature and attached to the 'other' in the course of your phenomenlogical experience . Therefore, right and wrong both exist and do not exist, because each of us carry around our own contructs of reality. This is because your 'other' is not the 'self' of the entities that may make up the psyche of your 'other', which may or may not even exist. yelrotflmao.gif

 

On the other hand, the notion of 'spray' is in fact real, and is not a shadow in the cave. wave.gif

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If we were to take the Utilitarian view then bolting rock would be doing the biggest good for the most people.

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olyclimber said:

I think this horse is dead. Lets move on to a topic that's easier to talk about. Peace in the Middle East: What are your thoughts? Who is right? Palestine or Isreal? fruit.gif

 

Dude, definitely Israel. They're like totally right. Or is it Palestine? I forget, but the point is conflict is bad. thumbs_down.gif

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mattp said:

Scott-

 

There is nothing "ethical" about trying to impose your ideas of style and aesthetics upon others who are doing nothing to harm you, anybody else, or the environment.

 

But you must also agree that "harming the environment" and "harming anybody else" have meanings that are very subjective. We continue to hear MattP protest against those "rock police" who want to impose their sense of aesthetics on everybody else. I suggest that bolt enthusiasts are imposing their lack of aesthetics on me.

 

I honestly think I could climb the hardest 5.14 at Smith if I were to carve a line of buckets straight up it. I'll bet I could employ the exact line of reasoning coming from the other side in this thread to justify that line of buckets.

 

"If you don't like it, climb some other place."

 

"Don't impose your beliefs on me."

 

"The damage caused by my actions are miniscule compared to other climbing practices."

 

"Climbing must move forward. Don't look back."

 

"Climbers have always altered the rock for their convenience."

 

"There's room for every style. Sport, trad, alpine, hold chipping.....it's all good."

 

"The Euros are chipping holds and they are like way cut up."

 

"It's called having fun. Every hear of having fun?"

 

"You should tolerate my line of carved buckets. It's not like there is a group of evil bucket carvers hiding in the bushes waiting to invade Smith Rock."

 

"You guys who don't chip holds are just weak. You feel threatened by the technical competence of the hold chippers."

 

"Sure chipping is altering the environment. But we've already altered Smith Rock. What's the big deal? I just look at it like area skiing."

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Lame pope...again you are confusing bolts w/ chipping...

 

Nobody has advocated reducing the physical challenge...you'd probably get your ass kicked by a bunch of sport climbers if you were to chip holds on ToBolt or somewhere else there...

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pope said:

mattp said:

Scott-

 

There is nothing "ethical" about trying to impose your ideas of style and aesthetics upon others who are doing nothing to harm you, anybody else, or the environment.

 

But you must also agree that "harming the environment" and "harming anybody else" have meanings that are very subjective. We continue to hear MattP protest against those "rock police" who want to impose their sense of aesthetics on everybody else. I suggest that bolt enthusiasts are imposing their lack of aesthetics on me.

 

I honestly think I could climb the hardest 5.14 at Smith if I were to carve a line of buckets straight up it. I'll bet I could employ the exact line of reasoning coming from the other side in this thread to justify that line of buckets.

 

"If you don't like it, climb some other place."

 

"Don't impose your beliefs on me."

 

"The damage caused by my actions are miniscule compared to other climbing practices."

 

"Climbing must move forward. Don't look back."

 

"Climbers have always altered the rock for their convenience."

 

"There's room for every style. Sport, trad, alpine, hold chipping.....it's all good."

 

"The Euros are chipping holds and they are like way cut up."

 

"It's called having fun. Every hear of having fun?"

 

"You should tolerate my line of carved buckets. It's not like there is a group of evil bucket carvers hiding in the bushes waiting to invade Smith Rock."

 

"You guys who don't chip holds are just weak. You feel threatened by the technical competence of the hold chippers."

 

"Sure chipping is altering the environment. But we've already altered Smith Rock. What's the big deal? I just look at it like area skiing."

 

Oh, I almost forgot this one:

 

"If you don't like my chopped out buckets, you can just ignore them and skip right past."

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AlpineK said:

If we were to take the Utilitarian view then bolting rock would be doing the biggest good for the most people.

 

In Soviet Russia, bolting the Peoples rock with the Peoples bolts creates jobs.

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RuMR said:

Lame pope...again you are confusing bolts w/ chipping...

 

Nobody has advocated reducing the physical challenge...you'd probably get your ass kicked by a bunch of sport climbers if you were to chip holds on ToBolt or somewhere else there...

 

What.....are they the rock police? You're making my argument for me: every lame justification for sport climbing offered in this thread can be used to defend just about ANY rock alterations. Of course I'm getting confused. I just hope that when I show up with my hammer and chisel, your sport buddies down at Smith are as progressive and open-minded as you have continually encouraged me to be. laugh.gif

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POPE! Are you really concerned about chipping??? It just isn't a problem...it doesn't happen that much, it isn't supported in mainstream rags, it doesn't get you sponsored...

 

Are you a closet chipper? is this why this is such a concern for you? Seriously, i can think of about 20 chipped routes out of maybe 5000 routes that i've seen...

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pope said:

RuMR said:

Lame pope...again you are confusing bolts w/ chipping...

 

Nobody has advocated reducing the physical challenge...you'd probably get your ass kicked by a bunch of sport climbers if you were to chip holds on ToBolt or somewhere else there...

 

What.....are they the rock police? You're making my argument for me: every lame justification for sport climbing offered in this thread can be used to defend just about ANY rock alterations. Of course I'm getting confused. I just hope that when I show up with my hammer and chisel, your sport buddies down at Smith are as progressive and open-minded as you have continually encouraged me to be. laugh.gif

 

Damn dude...you should have your next avatar be CaptainHyperbole...to match scott's SquawTalkaLottaShitt...

 

So...where are all of these dastardly chipped routes anyway????

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RuMR said:

POPE! Are you really concerned about chipping??? It just isn't a problem...it doesn't happen that much, it isn't supported in mainstream rags, it doesn't get you sponsored...

 

Are you a closet chipper? is this why this is such a concern for you? Seriously, i can think of about 20 chipped routes out of maybe 5000 routes that i've seen...

 

I'm not concerned about chipping, and I'm not a closet chipper. I just think it's time for sport climbing to evolve, and chipping seems like the future of your sport. Once you open your mind to it, I'm sure you'll agree. Remember, don't look back! laugh.gif

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Distel32 said:

Pope still hasn't responded to my pm cry.gifwave.gif

 

Forgive me. I had to work for a living today.

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This earth is big enough for everyone.

 

Some people who do not like bolting do something about it--they chop bolts and they have the freedom to do so.

 

Some people who like to bolt do something about it--they bolt and they have the freedom to do so.

 

Some people do not do anything and just write. They just rant on this website about ethics.

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Looking back is screwed when you have your gold colored nostalgia visor on lockdown...

 

I don't think you'll have anything to worry about regarding chipping...just not gonna be a problem...

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CHIPPING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A DEBATE ON BOLTING madgo_ron.gif

 

You're just trying to shift the subject.

 

PS I don't mind if you change the subject to Molly Ringwald now and then though.

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RuMR said:

Damn dude...you should have your next avatar be CaptainHyperbole...to match scott's SquawTalkaLottaShitt...

 

If you had described today's sport climbing scene to climbers of the 70's, they'd have accused you of being Captain Hyperbole.

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