Rich Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Thanks Michael for the good info. I have experience from both sides of the fence on this issue. Sounds like things have changed since the early eighties, particularly pay. For inmates, work for an outside company was the hit. Most prison jobs at McNeil Island in the early eighties payed between 25 to 50 cents an hour. A company job payed up to around $1.50 an hour. If you got a major infraction you lost the job. The hardcore inmates weren't interested in working, they just want to lift all day. Guys working these jobs will eventually be released. The move sounds like a sound business move. They may have been able to save even more money by shipping the jobs out of the country. Would that be a better alternative? Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Michael Lane,Thank you for your post and maybe this will help to keep things clear on this post.Now maybe the “philanthropists” will understand what you’re company representing I like and do buy your gear keep up the good work [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: IceIceBaby ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Country_Jake Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 BRAVO!!! Michael ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Union Shmunion... History lessons... OK thanks DAD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrogers Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Michael Lane: _____________Michael LaneOmega Pacific[/QB] Michael- Thanks for having the balls and the fortitude to represent your company here. As a fellow "marketing" professional, I'm glad that at least one person (as opposed to the TNF), has at least stood up to represent their own company. In full disclosure, I do have some of your gear, but certainly do appreciate both the quality and the price. Ethical decisons aside (did I mention I'm in advertising? ), at least the inmates are working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindude Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Right on Michael. Thanks for your well-written and -thought out reply. I appreciate your clearing up my own few misconceptions, and I now have even more respect for your company. Go Omega Man! Pindude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 on the workers who make are climbing crap.....most of my stuff is bd...most of that is made in slc.....most of my soft goods are arcteryx....made in n van b.c. pretty good working conmditions there....all my capiliene is made in the usa...though i do have some articles made else where i am sure that their payment for services rendered is what their local economy can handle.....yvon is a nice guy!!!! and neri....the prison is minimum security....so i doubt these people/prisners are a real threat most society. [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: erik ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: on the worker who make are climbing crap.....most of my stuff is bd...most of that is made in slc.....most of my soft goods are arcteryx....made in n van b.c. pretty good working conmditions there....all my capiliene is made in the use...though i do have some articles made eles where i am sure that their payment for services rendered what their local economy can handle.....yvon is a nice guy!!!!and neri....the prison is minimum security....so i doubt these people/prisners are a real threat most society. actually arcteryx moved to burnaby from N van like 3 years ago... those sewers and stitchers made like 3x what i did when i was a lowly shipper there too. so i say equal rights for opprressed shippers, oh wait, didnt i ship myself a dozen pro deal specials maybe that was my equal rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Will, for what it's worth, I've been a union member for most of my adult life, and have worked as a contract negotiator and a rep for my union at times over the years. Don't for a minute assume I don't know what I am talking about on this subject. On the other hand, I am surprised at what a shitstorm this has become. The only reason I broght up the whole prison labor thing in the first place is that it's nice to know these things when making informed choices as consumers. All I am doing by not buying OP products is exercising my rights as a consumer. I choose not to buy goods made by prisoners. I am not going to try and convert people to my way of thinking on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: Will, for what it's worth, I've been a union member for most of my adult life, and have worked as a contract negotiator and a rep for my union at times over the years. Don't for a minute assume I don't know what I am talking about on this subject.Your background aside, making the extrapolation of labor rights in the general population to labor rights for prisoners is flawed IMO for the reasons I've already listed. I am not going to try and convert people to my way of thinking on this. Really? [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: willstrickland ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Hmm, is Allison's ability to deceive herself one of her greatest talents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindude Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: Hi, I could go on and on about this, but I'm not going to. Here's what I will say: I try to buy goods that are made in places (not necessarily the USA) where workers are treated fairly. I can't say that I make 100% on this, but I do OK. My choice not to buy products made by Omega Pacific can be boiled down to one simple fact, for the sake of this discussion. The prison workers do not have the right to organize for the purpose of collective bargaining. In my mind, the discussion can stop right there, as the lack of right to such is for me a deal-breaker. Allison,In response:1. The workers ARE treated fairly. They do have the choice to work for O-P or not to. As mentioned before, this is a postive situation for everyone involved, to elaborate further: the prisoners make money and pride, the community gets better-adjusted people back into it when the prisoners are released, CRIME VICTIMS GET RESTITUTION they otherwise might not normally get, the state gets to cut its costs of caring for the prisoners, we get good biners, O-P gets to exist as a successful company. 2. Don't have the right to collective bargain? Get real! These are PRISONERS! 3. Sounds like you want to close your mind in re. to this issue, when you should be opening it. Pindude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: and neri....the prison is minimum security....so i doubt these people/prisners are a real threat most society.[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: erik ] So as the IRS will put it: To teach, rehabilitate and make sure that they wont be repeated offenders that might harm u physically or monetarily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Have you received much criticism about your decision to utilize prison labor? If so, what kind and from whom? Obviously, when you participate in a controversial program there will always be criticism. We have not lost any customers due to our participation in the program and, in fact, have actually increased our customer base. The criticism we have experienced is from supposed socially responsible people who actually are terribly uninformed and media biased regarding the program. They believe the program offers us many cost competitive advantages. However, when comparedto offshore costs where many of our competitor's products are manufactured, our costs are actually higher. After listening to an accurate explanation of the program and its overall benefits, they generally have a completely different outlook. How do you respond to those who would raise the following criticisms of utilizing inmate labor: a. the use of prison labor creates an unfair competitive advantageb. the use of prison labor exerts downward pressure on wages in the labor market c. prisoners are exploited because they* are paid low wages* receive no health benefits* receive no pensions The unfair competitive advantage and downward pressure on wages is not a true statement, as previously addressed. Inmates do receive full health benefits which are provided by the State. Inmates do not receive pensions because we, like many small businesses, do not currently have a pension program for inmates or staff. d. Safety and quality are inherently compromised by a work force comprised of sociopathic individuals who have already proven their untrustworthiness by virtue of their convictions for murders, assaults,robberies and other crimes against persons and society. It is unfortunate that the general population's perception of inmates is as negative as it is. Frankly, these men do not get the proper PR they deserve. Most of what is written and thought about inmates is extremely negative. The media thrives on the dark side most often only writing about the shocking and bizarre. They are not really interested in informing the public about the inmate who set up an entire computerized accounting system, or built an entire forging press, or wired an entire building to code. Or the inmate with college degrees who has an impeccable Q.C. inspection record and greatly assisted in our UL and CE product certifications, or the inmate who can manufacture 30% more parts than anyone on the outside ever did with minimal scrap. Don't get me wrong! There are some hard core inmates inside a correctional facility. But the majority are just regular people who have made mistakes and are paying their debt to society. Our current employees take great pride in their work and the product they produce. Safety and quality is part of their every day modus operandi. e. The use of prison labor to manufacture products for sale into commercial markets is contrary to international conventions and treaties and weakens the ability of the United States and other nations to eliminate human rights abuses in China and other countries. I could not agree more with that statement if it were accurate. However, I believe my previous discussion of the program clearly indicates that the parameters under which we must operate precludes any chance of human rights abuse and, in fact, protects the rights of inmates. f. The use of inmate labor is inherently unethical and socially irresponsible. Quite the contrary! Not only is it ethical, since the inmates are treated the same as outside employees; but is socially responsible because the inmates benefit, the institution benefits, private business benefits and the taxpayers benefit with the combined ultimate goal of reducing recidivism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Ok Indulge me. Those concerned with "fairness" please help me to understand you rposition what does fair mean. I didn't seem to read the definition for unacceptable. But surely such a critical keystone of yoru argument must have an unequivocal defintion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: The only reason I broght up the whole prison labor thing in the first place is that it's nice to know these things when making informed choices as consumers. All I am doing by not buying OP products is exercising my rights as a consumer. I choose not to buy goods made by prisoners. I am not going to try and convert people to my way of thinking on this. Allison,Thank you for clearing that it is your opinion only and god bless u for that.Now that we clear that there is no violation of civil/amnesty rights/laws in employing inmates, we can consternate on quality and product value of OP with the prisoners labor fact been benign AHHH……What was the question?? [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: IceIceBaby ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Ok Indulge me. Those concerned with "fairness" please help me to understand you rposition what does fair mean. I didn't seem to read the definition for unacceptable. But surely such a critical keystone of yoru argument must have an unequivocal defintion. You mean like the clear distinction between art and trash or erotica and pornography? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Why buy anything made by an inmate in the US when you could get something cheaper made by a kid chained to a table in a third-world sweatshop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishstick Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 So I guess if Airbus Industries, BC softwood producers, European and Canadian farmers, and Korean steel producers all chose to use prison labor, that wouldn't be seen as a subsidy by the US government? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joekania Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 I'm glad so much of this has been sorted out, I think the state looking over OP's shoulder on the competitive wage aspect is enough for all of us except maybe Allison. And the quality of their product seems never to have been in question. What is still sticking in my craw is this passage from OP's website: "What incentives did the State of Washington offer Omega Pacific? They provided no cost manufacturing space." So you, me, senior citizens, disabled people, any and all non-climbers, we are all sending our tax $ to Olympia so that OP doesn't have to pay rent for their manufacturing space. Am I the only one who did a double take when I read that? So buy OP, you're already subsidizing their rent, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Camazonia wrote: "The USA was built on UNION labor and is the backbone of this country.....the USA would not be the leader of the free world had it not been for union labor." Oh spare me. Union labor is only one part of a sophistcated and diverse economy. Unions had nothing to do with westward expansion, little if anything to do with Tech advances, and are shrinking in numbers because they are so inflexible and corrupt. The corruption element is a major reason why Unions are having such problems today. I believe unions have thier place, but reason we are the leader of the free world? Get over it. Go Michael!!! I am going to run out and get some of the new biners. Anyone seen these in stores yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappellini Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 they're criminals...convicted criminals....they should earn their room and board....making biners? whatever...it beats the chain gang....i think they should be forced to pull all those stupid studs out of the rock at the sunshine wall, before some other criminal puts hangers back on em...............than they should knock all the loose rocks off the rest of the entablature so we can put more bolts on that..... wine wine wine... there is so much suffering in the world...think i'll go fill my tank and get a hamburger before i buy a bunch of climbing gear made over seas where they have less stringent environmental laws....i hear black diamond has great gear made in the developing world for pennies and sold over here for top dollar.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teogo Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 It's interesting to note that regulations in some countries, Canada for instance, make it illegal to import and sell OP gear---the use of prison labour for the manufacture of any goods render the sale of those goods illegal. (Thus the return of product at MEC a number of years ago.) While the hourly wage that OP is paying seems reasonable the Canadian law is intended to deal with countries like China where prison labour is routinely used for truly dangerous, horrible work. (I.E. wading around in a vat of chemicals at a match making company with no protective clothing, or working in a coal mine with very minimal safety precautions.) Spaulding, Hertz, Howard Johnson and a lot of other compaies use prison labour, (check out Micheal Moore's documentary The Big One). While Washington state may enforce wage parity my understanding is that many states do not----the one dollar an hour scenerio is common. The bottom line for me: if a company wants to use prison labour fine, but pay the going rate. Child support, contributions to victim and court funds can certainly be detucted, but pay the going rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregm Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by cappellini: wine wine wine... there is so much suffering in the world...think i'll go fill my tank i'm not trying to harp on spelling here but did you mean "wine wine wine" or "whine whine whine". both interpretations seem plausible. yeah i've [hic] been know to drown my [hic] sorrow in a bottle of trader joe's cabernet sauvignon [hic]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Teogo: It's interesting to note that regulations in some countries, Canada for instance, make it illegal to import and sell OP gear---the use of prison labour for the manufacture of any goods render the sale of those goods illegal. (Thus the return of product at MEC a number of years ago.) While the hourly wage that OP is paying seems reasonable the Canadian law is intended to deal with countries like China where prison labour is routinely used for truly dangerous, horrible work.(I.E. wading around in a vat of chemicals at a match making company with no protective clothing, or working in a coal mine with very minimal safety precautions.) Spaulding, Hertz, Howard Johnson and a lot of other compaies use prison labour, (check out Micheal Moore's documentary The Big One). While Washington state may enforce wage parity my understanding is that many states do not----the one dollar an hour scenerio is common. The bottom line for me: if a company wants to use prison labour fine, but pay the going rate. Child support, contributions to victim and court funds can certainly be detucted, but pay the going rate. Only the biners, and its more MEC ethics than Canada nowadays, cause you can buy Omega biners at most of the other gear stores up here. Even MEC carries the screws and whatnot I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 So does this mean that the prisoners don't really have carabiners clipped to their scrotums while they work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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