pindude Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: Uh, it has less to do with "prisoners making stuff" and more to do with "not being made by people working under acceptable labor standards." Allison,What are you talking about? Be careful if you are going to make broad sweeping statements without facts and reasoning to back them up--it shows a lack of credibility. Especially if you are going to diss a manufacturer and their products. Elaborate. Be more specific. Just how do you come up with the idea that people working in prison are not working under acceptable labor standards? Show me some proof to back up your statement. Define "acceptable labor standards." Whose standards? Pindude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: They used to be made with prison labor, not sure if they are anymore, but I don't like that and consequently have not bought any. They also had a recall a few years back for defective 'biners.... quote: Originally posted by allison: Uh, it has less to do with "prisoners making stuff" and more to do with "not being made by people working under acceptable labor standards." Allison,[*]Look at my reply to Dru regarding inmate rights[*]On another note you might going to be interested in this BDNo one is immune to production defects and the more strict the standard the more u will see this kind of action from any given manufacture in any industry even allot more sophisticated then climbing gear manufactures Remember the DC-10 airplanes… [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: IceIceBaby ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeTool Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 I'm not going to reply for allison but here is some info:http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~kastor/private/privatize.html http://www.igc.org/lpa/lpv24/lp3.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Don't be so judgemental of a company trying to save money in a compedative envorinment. If you don't like your stuff being made in an "ethically challenged" workplace, you'd better rip up and burn all of your goretex clothing. Not to mention your pack, sleeping bag... and so on. Look at where that stuff is made, and tell me those workers are living in better conditions and getting paid more than WA state inmates. As for people losing their jobs to inmates at OP, this is what they say: quote: What happened to the employees who were replaced by inmate labor?All Omega Pacific staff employees were offered the opportunity to move with the company and retain their positions. Omega Pacific worked very closely with other businesses and a local employment agency to minimize production worker displacement. The end result was very minimal production worker unemployment. ... companies will move people to save money. you don't like it, well too bad. (and become your own boss) I suggest before you spray and dis a good company's name, you should inform yourself. This is thier page concerning inmate labor: http://www.omegapac.com/prison.asp Personally, I really like OP's stuff. I've used their ice screws (which are Smilie's) for 3 years and they are still as sharp and easy to place as my BD's (1/2 the price too). The "shiny" coating doesn't flake off, assuming you're not using them as chocks in the off season. Also, I think that OP has you, the Alpinist, in mind when designing their gear. Look at their Ti headed ice tools. Look at that Doval biner. You can do a carabiner break rap on it, and it's the same weight as a neutrino (and one dollar cheaper)! Sweet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JoeTool: I'm not going to reply for allison but here is some info:http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~kastor/private/privatize.html http://www.igc.org/lpa/lpv24/lp3.htm JoeTool,I just dont understand why u use this as supportive document I didn’t see any reputable, creditable and objective institution behind itJust look who is the publisher of the Article . It seems that it is an article written by very angry person that might as well was or is an inmate himself [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: IceIceBaby ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Right on Dave! I can't people are arguing about the "ethics" of this company. So what if they are using prison labor. It cost 40k a year to lock those fuckers up they better be doing some work instead of lifting weights and butt raping each other. OP is doing these people a service by giving them work. You think it's hard finding a job now, try finding one after being locked up for four years. How "ethical" is the company you work for? Do they set aside time for a group hug followed by going through the garbage and sorting stuff for recycling and the compost pile? Give me a freaken break. I feel bad for the people who lost their jobs when the company moved but it was a smart decision. Spokane is much cheap than the Bear Creek Redmond area where they used to be. I like OPs stuff and I'll continue to buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 the question that arises for me, is what benefit do the people/tax payer of washington state get???? are we not paying to house these people??? and they are being used/working for a private industry..........i imagine some or most of their profits (prisinors) goes to pay restitution to their victems??? and i dont like op stuff........just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Hi, I could go on and on about this, but I'm not going to. Here's what I will say: I try to buy goods that are made in places (not necessarily the USA) where workers are treated fairly. I can't say that I make 100% on this, but I do OK. My choice not to buy products made by Omega Pacific can be boiled down to one simple fact, for the sake of this discussion. The prison workers do not have the right to organize for the purpose of collective bargaining. In my mind, the discussion can stop right there, as the lack of right to such is for me a deal-breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: the question that arises for me, is what benefit do the people/tax payer of washington state get???? are we not paying to house these people??? and they are being used/working for a private industry..........i imagine some or most of their profits (prisinors) goes to pay restitution to their victems???and i dont like op stuff........just my opinion Giving then vacation from society and preventing them from doing more harm to you I guess your freedom and right to exist cost some money creamed from your salary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Allison the shovel you're using is getting bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: The prison workers do not have the right to organize for the purpose of collective bargaining. In my mind, the discussion can stop right there, as the lack of right to such is for me a deal-breaker. While this may be the case in your Labor 101 case studies, I believe prisoners fall into a vastly different context. For me, the notion of being incarcerated means you lose all but the most basic human rights such as health care or food. Some concessions are granted such as education because it serves to rehabilitate the prisoner as well as serving society by improving the skillset of the workforce (speaking in generalities here). I do not feel that the "right to organize for the purpose of collective bargaining" is a basic right that we should guarantee to prisoners. The whole notion seems farcical to me, you can't come out of your cell at night, but wait till you see what the latest strike on the carabiner line did for our upcoming contract arbitration... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 "All Omega Pacific staff employees were offered the opportunity to move with the company and retain their positions." 'Yup Smith, if you make the move your new position will be "Stoolie" and you will be bunked in Cell Block D with Rock, MadDawg and Humptree' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Nope! Dru when someone is making a clear ethical judgement such as "fair treatmen"t they should know what they mean. Those saying that the use of some labor is unfair are making clear statements about the "goodness or badness of other indiviuals - they are not saying it is a shade of gray. While we may all have difficulty defining when a pot of cooling water turns from hot to cold, we share an understanding of the condition we call hot. I would say unless Allison can define what she means her own understanding isconfused and some may choose not to deign to engage her in a debate. After the definitions of hot and warm are better defined then we can chat about what lukewarm means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayborbon Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Who cares. If you dont like prison labor then dont buy them. If you dont like allison spray all over her. I do. Peter you dont have to be nice here. It's the pub online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 I used to work for the state and they encouraged us to buy our office supplies and furniture from Correctional Industries of Walla Walla, WA (i.e. the state pen). Turned out the prices were not that competitive and the quality was poor, so I stopped buying from them. If nothing else it gave them something to do. [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: lizard brain ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 I didn't say anyone has to be nice. I just had a crush on Allison since she use one of my favorite words (deign)an now my fantsay bubble has burst. [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Peter Puget ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleeshterFeeshter Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Prison Labor?Climbing boyz and girlz, what do you think you are? At either end of the Social Economic Spectrum lies a leisure class. I do not know of too many climbers in PNW that are named Gates or Allen. We are all worker bees trying to pay the man so he dont come and kill us. OP rules. Those workers at OP could all unite and overthrow the fascist state of Washington. The Elves would know what to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayborbon Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Peter you need to take a lesson in pure hostility. I give them for free. Just remember read back there and realize that allison opened the can of worms on herself anyways.. She knows how the spray gets in here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 I wonder how many of those experienced OP carabiner makers go to work for BD, Kong etc when they get released Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haireball Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 I own a few of their newer "iso-forged" carabiners, and like them so far. I've been very impressed with their latest belay device, which can be configured three different ways to vary the amount of braking force from "high-speed-rappel" to "stop-the-train-instantly". My general impression has been: highly functional gear at a very affordable price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Who cares if they work for BD after they get out? Like you said before, they might've just gotten busted for smoking dope. "Prisoners not being able to form a union" is easily one of the silliest comments I've read on this board ever. That was great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by rayborbon: Peter you need to take a lesson in pure hostility. I give them for free. that sounds somewhat "Neanderthal" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Lane Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Somebody once said that any publicity is good publicity as long as they spell your name right. I suppose there's a kernel of truth in there, but I must admit that it's frustrating when so much incorrect information is spread about our inmate workforce. As sales manager for Omega Pacific, I want to correct a few bits of misinformation that have been shared here. If someone has fundamental and ethical objections to inmates working for private companies, that's fine (although I would argue that it's, in fact, more ethical to provide opportunity and rehabilitation via programs like ours), but it’s not fair to blast us using wildly inaccurate and bizarre accusations. First of all, each of the sixty inmate workers in our primary plant (we actually have two facilities; only one of them is inside the prison) is valuable member of our company. Every one of them applied and interviewed for the job of their own choosing. Working for Omega is a completely voluntary situation. No one is forced or coerced to work in any way and anybody can leave their job whenever they choose. In fact, we have hundreds of applicants waiting eagerly for interviews as soon as any new jobs open up One poster asked what benefit to Washington state this provides … Well, for starters, nobody can work for Omega if they’ve committed a major infraction, which includes possession and/or use of drugs, fighting and so forth. So, counting our employees and the couple hundred guys waiting for a job to open up, there are over 250 inmates keeping their noses clean and staying out of trouble. Ultimately, though, there’s a much greater benefit to society as a whole. Many workers in programs like ours have never held a job before nor developed skills to deal with conflict constructively. While working with us, however, many learn to do so. We’ve seen the changes with our own eyes. Men learn to handle problems with each other through dialogue and cooperation when they might previously have been more inclined to resort to violence. Most of our workers aren’t lifers. We’re in a medium security facility and the types of crimes most of these inmates committed ensure that—someday—they’re coming out from behind bars and will move into your neighborhoods. I ask you … would you prefer that they spent their prison years learning to become more violent or learning how to produce and get along? Statistics prove that the programs work, too. The rate of re-offending is 87% lower for inmates who participate in this program than for those who do not. If you want to look for success at rehabilitating prisoners, this is it. There is no other real effort to do so. As for fair treatment … all I can say is that these men are treated as well as any workers anywhere. Period. They can file grievances, suggest improvements, request for equipment, express preferences and contribute in any way that other workers in other companies do. And as for their lack of collective bargaining, while it’s true that they don’t have a union to fight for their wages, in fact, they have something better. The state of Washington monitors our payroll and mandates a certain wage based on the state average for that job on the outside. For instance, if the typical machine operator with experience makes $9.00 an hour in Washington, we are obligated by state law to pay that amount or we get shut down. Not a bad substitute for collective bargaining, I’d say. From their pay, they contribute to a victim restitution fund, another fund to help pay part of their court & incarceration expenses as well as any child support they’re obligated to. When we moved from the Seattle area seven years ago, each of our employees at that time was given the opportunity to move with the company and maintain their positions with us, so to use the term “layoff” isn’t at all accurate. As for the quality of our product, just take a look. Compare our line from 1996 to now. It’s clear to everyone that we have pioneered new technologies (ISO Cold Forging) and introduced new features previously never seen on carabiners (hooded gates, tapered noses, spin-rivets, etc.) while maintaining our affordability. Even though we’ve increased the performance of our products skyward, the value of the Omega line has never been stronger. Our products are still more affordable and better-built than most of our competitors. Finally, a word about the alleged recall ... We issued a call for inspection in about 1996 concerning a batch of carabiners built in our old factory—NOT made by inmates! The call for inspection was to alert climbers to inspect their biners for loose rivets and return any that were suspicious. Of the 30,000 biners affected by that inspection notice, we received five (5) back. That is our one and only “recall” issue in the history of our company. Which is damn good when you count the numbers of true recalls (when a company asks for every single product in a batch to be returned for repair or replacement) many of our competitors have had to make. Bottom line is we’re proud of our company and the gear we make. We will continue to introduce truly cool climbing gear and we hope that those who care enough to express an opinion about our employees will do some research before hitting the “post” button. If you want more information, check our website: www.omegapac.com or email me. _____________Michael LaneOmega Pacific Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Thats a good response Michael. i feel less guilty owning omega gear now but is it true that the issue of prison made gear was why MEC stopped carrying your biners or was it because they found a Euro brand they could sell for cheaper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMAZONIA Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 The USA was built on UNION labor and is the backbone of this country. IF you would take a labor history course I think you would relize a lot of families have been raized on union bargained labor and the USA would not be the leader of the free world had it not been for union labor. Don't be talking trash about union labor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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