Dru Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted October 26, 2003 Author Share Posted October 26, 2003 catbirdseat said: Kurt, the point I was trying to make about the clove hitch is that strength is not an issue. Don't get all excited for nothing.  Both the bowline with the Yosemite finish and the rewoven bowline are good knots that will not come untied. I would not hesitate to use either of them myself for safety's sake. They are great if you know how to tie them properly.  So here, instead of going from memory, I looked it up.  Bowline 63 percent Clove Hitch 60 percent Figure Eight Loop 80 percent  Sources: http://www.layhands.com/knots/ and Boat Crew Seamanship Manual COMDTINST M16114.5B (Feb 27, 1998)  I reiterate, all these knots are strong enough.  I don't think a single bowline is a good knot, even with a half fisherman as backup. I sometimes use a half fisherman on my figure eights to use up an extra long tail. The half fisherman sometimes comes untied. If the backup knot comes untied the bowline can come untied. (Double fisherman knots, by the way never come untied because the two knots are cinched against one another, something that is difficult to do when a half fisherman is used as a backup knot).  Your figure 8 has 5% more holding power than my Double Bowline .  And that is so crucial on all of the factor two falls we take, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_average Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted October 26, 2003 Author Share Posted October 26, 2003 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_average Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 CBS Clove hitches have an equal strenght to 8s in fact if you look at some ratings they have more. 75% at least acording to some sites. Â But websites are bullshit. The clove hitch is the standard knot for lowering large limbs and tops of trees while removing trees. I submit to you that tree guys have a lot more practical experience with loading knots than an unemployed chemist with 2 years of climbing experience. Â As for you man/boy Paul, give it up. You're beat and you know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketch Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Alpine Your right about tree guys and practical experiance. I'm not quite sure that it applies here. In my experience with tree stuff, limbs and pieces were lowered away with a clove and sometimes a half hitch a little further up to add directional control if needed. A clove works great for that as it is constantly loaded. It does exactly what it is made for. If you introduce slack into the system (ie rolling the knot or falls) the clove can roll in a similar fashion to the EDk inverting. It is still a strong knot just best suited for it's purpose. I don't know anybody that ties in with a clove hitch. Â I like the figure of eight with yosemite finish. It adds a good back up, gets the tail out of the way, and the best part is that if you fall on it when you jerk the finish first it reintroduces slack into the knot and it unties way easier. Â Just as a side note. The riggers tell me that a bowline tied outside (like was talked about way back in this thread) you lose and additional 10% over being tied inside. I havn't looked that up as I don't intend on tying them outside anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 A standard tie off for a tree top is a clove hitch with 2 half hitches to back it up (due to the knot rolling problem) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ketch Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Ya for a top that works. No roll no fuss. I think I would prefer a clove for lowerin. I used to haul logs with a timberline followed by a single half at the high end. Worked good, I never did feel like it was bomber. Point is the timberline is just a cinch it don't even count as a knot and in the right spot we never dropped a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobinc Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 I CHEATED DEATH once again by using a double loop bowline instead of a lemming knot (i.e. 2x figure 8) on a REAL CLIMB today even though I knew it wasn't as strong and would almost certainly try to untie itself. I monitored it closely but there was little evidence of its stealth during the day. Just in case, I left it tied to my harness in the back of my truck and will check it first thing in the morning. Â PS I must admit it is backed up w/ the Yosemite finish. Â PPS I saw someone today who rappelled over 100' using the old Yosemite system (carabiner brake). I tried to stop him but it was too late. I was shocked that he didn't end up in several pieces at the bottom of the cliff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coopah Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Dru said: Bowline knots are stupid and for people who want to pretend they are old skool and stupid and stupid. And faux-old school and stuff. Stupid. Â Hope you never need a rescue...most "stupid" rescue teams use the bowline equally if not more than the fig 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Coopah said: Dru said: Bowline knots are stupid and for people who want to pretend they are old skool and stupid and stupid. And faux-old school and stuff. Stupid. Â Hope you never need a rescue...most "stupid" rescue teams use the bowline equally if not more than the fig 8 Â thta prolly has to do with the high loads there prolly eh cheif? not the brightest crayon in teh box now are we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_average Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Rescues are aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 As a climbing high steel rigger,nothing can replace the bowline on the job site. A person does not make friends with his ground man by giving him knots that suck to untie. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Pencil_Pusher said: What's 1000lbs? Something like 5kn? A 110ft factor 1 fall has got to generate more force than that. Maybe there was more to the story, but I feel pretty confident using them (not to tie in with). Â Factor 1 = Factor 1 = Factor 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_average Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 snoboy said: Pencil_Pusher said: What's 1000lbs? Something like 5kn? A 110ft factor 1 fall has got to generate more force than that. Maybe there was more to the story, but I feel pretty confident using them (not to tie in with). Â Factor 1 = Factor 1 = Factor 1. Duh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 26, 2003 Share Posted October 26, 2003 Max Factor? Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 OMFG I hope you guys were out climbing this weekend 'cause I see a hell of a lot of nerdy knot posts on Sat and Sun here. The weather was beautiful this weekend. Ice on Sat, Crack on Sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted October 27, 2003 Author Share Posted October 27, 2003 Wow. You actually climb? Â Climbers are so cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Oscar the Grouch is like a bad acid trip. Actually the majority of the muppets are. Fraggle Rock is more like a mellow shroom session Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 MisterE said: Yeah, the mounties would never endorse a "dangerous" knot like the bowline. Â Plus, they would never want to get confused with the sailors that are buggerluggin' 'em. Â I know a long-time Mountaineer climb leader who ties in exclusively with a bowline with Yos finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 mtngrrrl said: Is it groundhog day? Yep, figger-8 for me. You bowline folks must be in the Mountaineers. Â BOO-HISS...i will now UNTIE every figure-8 in the VW gym...neneneeener!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 AlpineK said:  Yosemite Bowline This knot was sent to me by Bonnie Crystal. This is a variant of the basic bowline which gets around the problem of the knot loosening itself by taking the end of the rope and threading it back through the knot. This is a neat alternative to using a half-hitch to secure the end of the rope and the resulting knot has the strength of a figure of eight.    source  Only knot to use!!! Great pic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Any of you bowline (or DBBB or bowline w/yos. fin. or whatever variant) users notice a bit of abrasion on your rope where it runs into the knot (i.e. where the rabbit's path goes around the tree trunk, for lack of a better explanation)? DFA was tyin' in this weekend with his trusty DBBB, and noticed a bit of abraded rope over about a 6-8" area around where the rabbit goes 'round the tree. Â Similar experience? Comments? Criticism? Indignant rage and death threats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coopah Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 scott_harpell said: Coopah said: Dru said: Bowline knots are stupid and for people who want to pretend they are old skool and stupid and stupid. And faux-old school and stuff. Stupid. Â Hope you never need a rescue...most "stupid" rescue teams use the bowline equally if not more than the fig 8 Â thta prolly has to do with the high loads there prolly eh cheif? not the brightest crayon in teh box now are we? Â Did the spelling bee champ say something? Not sure what you wrote as it was mostly jibberish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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