5 reasons to tie in...

[kurthicks]

the clove is plenty strong enough as long as you tie it with the load strand on the solid (non-gate) side of the biner. otherwise it reduces the strength by something like 70% when the knot tries to realign itself...and biners break.

[Winter]

I learned to tie the bowline while sailing as well and then started climbing and wondered why those stupid sailors ever used the bowline to tie in. I heard several stories of fathers losing sons, husbands losing wives, friends losing dogs, over the side in a storm cause of a failed bowline. They are easy to mis tie and they work themselves lose unless you tend them regularly. I'll never use one in the mountains. But I've never learned to tie the double either.

[catbirdseat]

AlpineK said:

catbirdseat said:

Bowline not as strong as figure eight and does not absorb energy like an eight.

 

I think you need to study your knots a little more CBS. You always seem to come up with bad info; like saying a clove hitch isn't very strong, etc.

 

As an example: I drop chunks of wood that are heavier than most people on rope that is much more static than rock climbing rope, and the clove hitch is the knot of choice for a tie off knot. I've never had a c hitch fail; however from one of your posts a while back you said the knot was not very strong.

Show me where I said a clove hitch is not a good not for tying in. There's nothing wrong with it (although John Long often uses figure eight loops in the photos in Climbing Anchors). They can slip some, which may in fact be a good thing.

[bunglehead]

I have futzed around with using both a double bowline with a Yosemite finish and a double bowline with a jacks variation. I've found that these need more so than a good old rewoven figue eight to be very neatly dressed and cinched. If they're not, they will loosen.

[catbirdseat]

Winter said:

I learned to tie the bowline while sailing as well and then started climbing and wondered why those stupid sailors ever used the bowline to tie in. I heard several stories of fathers losing sons, husbands losing wives, friends losing dogs, over the side in a storm cause of a failed bowline. They are easy to mis tie and they work themselves lose unless you tend them regularly. I'll never use one in the mountains. But I've never learned to tie the double either.

If you let the clew of your jib flog for any length of time, there's a chance that the bowline can come untied. Since spinnakers often are flogged during setting and taking down, I switch from the bowline to the inside clove hitch. It never comes untied and is easy to untie. It is also strong.

[sk]

I am little and I like my fig.8 follow threw And I AM NOT TO EMABARASSED TO ASK some one to untie me if I am too pummped

[sobo]

WARNING: Old skewl wanker weighing in...

 

I have always used a doule bowline with the Yos finish, and *it has never come untied* in over 15 years of using it. The rewoven 8 gets too bound up to untie easily after climbing, so I don't intend ever to use it unless some credible info crops up which casts serious dispersions upon the DB.

 

Secondly, I learned the DB while caving, before I started climbing and waaay long before I started sailing. The bowline is one knot which cavers learn can save their very ass cuz it's the one knot that can hold body weight in a raise and *can be tied with one hand*, as would an injured caver.

 

Sailors experience the bowline coming undone *because you don't finish a bowline* as a matter of standard practice on a sailboat. SO you all are talking apples and oranges when comparing bowlines for use in sailing v. climbing.

 

And lastly, a double looped 8 will take less tightening on the knot because teh force in a fall is applied more to teh double looping around teh harness. Remember your "wrap three, pull two" mantra from rigging for rescue techniques?

QED.

[Thinker]

catbirdseat said:

Show me where I said a clove hitch is not a good not for tying in. There's nothing wrong with it (although John Long often uses.....

 

I'll say it. A clove hitch is not a good knot for tying in with. In fact, it would be quite difficult to tie in with. I love it for lots of other reasons, but not for tying in.

 

(I do know that's not what you really meant to say...just couldn't resist. )

[mtngrrrl]

Is it groundhog day? Yep, figger-8 for me. You bowline folks must be in the Mountaineers.

[iain]

I think he means using it to set up an anchor system using the rope. a clove hitch would be poor choice to tie in with for a number of reasons. First off, because it's a hitch.

 

Who cares? Tie in with what you want, it's your life. Just don't do something just 'cause. Get some real data.

[Winter]

sobo said:

WARNING: Old skewl wanker weighing in...

 

I have always used a doule bowline with the Yos finish, and *it has never come untied* in over 15 years of using it. The rewoven 8 gets too bound up to untie easily after climbing, so I don't intend ever to use it unless some credible info crops up which casts serious dispersions upon the DB.

 

Secondly, I learned the DB while caving, before I started climbing and waaay long before I started sailing. The bowline is one knot which cavers learn can save their very ass cuz it's the one knot that can hold body weight in a raise and *can be tied with one hand*, as would an injured caver.

 

Sailors experience the bowline coming undone *because you don't finish a bowline* as a matter of standard practice on a sailboat. SO you all are talking apples and oranges when comparing bowlines for use in sailing v. climbing.

 

And lastly, a double looped 8 will take less tightening on the knot because teh force in a fall is applied more to teh double looping around teh harness. Remember your "wrap three, pull two" mantra from rigging for rescue techniques?

QED.

 

So why the hell don't sailors finish a bowline? I learned it for a number of reasons and learned to tie it with one hand. But nobody EVER told me to finish a bowline when I was tying into a harness on deck.

[iain]

the bowline family must be backed up, every time. those suckers come untied looking at em wrong.

[E-rock]

mtngrrrl said:

Is it groundhog day? Yep, figger-8 for me. You bowline folks must be in the Mountaineers.

 

Actually the mountie was arguing for the figger-8 in typical mountie fashion (the bowline isn't as STRONG!, ooooh).

 

9mm rope isn't as strong as 10.5 either.

 

I like it when people argue over nerdy stuff like they're favorite knots, or they're favorite brand of cams.

[EWolfe]

Yeah, the mounties would never endorse a "dangerous" knot like the bowline.

 

Plus, they would never want to get confused with the sailors that are buggerluggin' 'em.

[AlpineK]

catbirdseat said:

Show me where I said a clove hitch is not a good not for tying in. There's nothing wrong with it (although John Long often uses figure eight loops in the photos in Climbing Anchors). They can slip some, which may in fact be a good thing.

 

The discussion of clove hitches wasn't related to tying into a rope. You just claimed it was a weak knot.

[JayB]

I think the merits of the DB are real enough, but the eight has become second nature, I can inspect it at a glance, and it is at least as safe as the DB so I don't expect I'll ever make the conversion.

[iain]

I don't tie in with it because it the knot of communists. the mere mention of it makes me go code orange and question your patriotism

[Crux]

MisterE said:

Yeah, the mounties would never endorse a "dangerous" knot like the bowline.

 

Plus, they would never want to get confused with the sailors that are buggerluggin' 'em.

 

Yeah to that, and what would a proper buggerin' be without wearing a fashionably correct figger-8 about one's harness?

[sobo]

Winter said:

sobo said:

WARNING: Old skewl wanker weighing in...

 

I have always used a doule bowline with the Yos finish, and *it has never come untied* in over 15 years of using it. The rewoven 8 gets too bound up to untie easily after climbing, so I don't intend ever to use it unless some credible info crops up which casts serious dispersions upon the DB.

 

Secondly, I learned the DB while caving, before I started climbing and waaay long before I started sailing. The bowline is one knot which cavers learn can save their very ass cuz it's the one knot that can hold body weight in a raise and *can be tied with one hand*, as would an injured caver.

 

Sailors experience the bowline coming undone *because you don't finish a bowline* as a matter of standard practice on a sailboat. SO you all are talking apples and oranges when comparing bowlines for use in sailing v. climbing.

 

And lastly, a double looped 8 will take less tightening on the knot because teh force in a fall is applied more to teh double looping around teh harness. Remember your "wrap three, pull two" mantra from rigging for rescue techniques?

QED.

 

So why the hell don't sailors finish a bowline? I learned it for a number of reasons and learned to tie it with one hand. But nobody EVER told me to finish a bowline when I was tying into a harness on deck.

 

Sailors don't finish a bowline for one major reason: You don't need to. If it comes undone, you turn into the wind, grab the clew, and retie it. Yah, you lose time (if you're racing), but for whatever reason, you just don't back them up. It's not like you're going to die if it comes undone, unlike while climbing...

 

And as far as tying in on deck, just use an SOSuspenders instead of roping in. No sense getting tea-bagged (non-sexual version) by being all wired into the boat. Just go over teh side, get wet, and POP! You're saved!

[sobo]

mtngrrrl said:

Is it groundhog day? Yep, figger-8 for me. You bowline folks must be in the Mountaineers.

 

I hardly think so...

[Cpt.Caveman]

I use clove hitches, figger eights, bowlines and stuff all the time to tie in.

 

I never make a technical decision about which based on any logic other than what I feel I want to use at a given time.

 

I believe all these knots are fine and that I am more suspect of an anchor failure than a knot breakage most of the time.

 

5 Reasons to tie in for me:

 

You can fall off if you get lazy.

The leader can fall and stress an anchor.

Because an anchor exists.

To rappell.

To solo rope climb.

 

[Alpine_Tom]

MisterE said:

Yeah, the mounties would never endorse a "dangerous" knot like the bowline.

 

I'm not a Mountie, but Dan Larson told me that in the Basic Class, they required them to always tie in with a bowline on a bight. (For glacier travel, anyhow, I don't know about on rock.)

 

[Dru]

what's that knot where you clip a figure-of-8 device onto your harness with a locking biner and then use a bunch of granny knots and half hitches to attach it to the rope?

[gnibmilc]

some of the mounties teach a rewoven 8 backed up with an overhand, on the ends of the rope, and a bowline with a bite with a locker anywhere in between.

[gnibmilc]

Dru said:

what's that knot where you clip a figure-of-8 device onto your harness with a locking biner and then use a bunch of granny knots and half hitches to attach it to the rope?

a marital aid?