kakeandjelly Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 What is the best second tool for alpine routes and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 kakeandjelly said: What is the best second tool for alpine routes and why? A ropegun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 If you are not expecting to use it, the best second tool is the smallest and lightest you can get. I have used an old alpine hammer for this purpose for years, and something like that "third tool" made by Grivel might be a good thing to bring along if you were worried about maybe encountering a moderate 'schrund problem or something on an otherwise straight forward climb. If you are headed for more serious alpine climbing, however, you may want something more serious. Even for relatively easy ice climbing, many climbers like to have a second tool that nearly resembles their primary one in terms of length and weight. Realize, however, that a 50 cm tool is kind of a nuisance for pounding pitons. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakeandjelly Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 Considering a route such as Liberty Ridge, where you will likely run into some fairly steep ice and hard snow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmberBuxom Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 mattp said: Realize, however, that a 50 cm tool is kind of a nuisance for pounding pitons. 50 cm is only 10 more than a standard framing hammer (the primary tool of choice for carpenters). choke up already. Â get a straight shaft hammer ice axe and call it a second tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I'd probably recommend a long and fairly stout second tool with a hammer head on it for that route, as you may use it to pound pickets but you will not be using it to pound pitons, there is no place where the long shaft is going to get in the way, and you can lean on it for thousands of feet of climbing. Depending on your comfort level with the route, however, you could get away with a minimal second tool and some people just use a ski pole for their second tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmberBuxom Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 and some people ski or board down liberty ridge. Â appropriate tools are conditions dependent. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Right you are, Amber, that you can pound pitons with a longer tool, and most would prefer your full length tool with a hammer head for Liberty Ridge or for any climb where there will be actual ice climbing (but such climbing is a rarity on Cascade "alpine" climbs - at least in the Summer time). I also agree that the choice of tools is indeed "conditions dependent." But I bet most cc.com climbers would be quite comfortable on most cascade alpine routes with the shortest version of this as their second tool: Â Â Kake didn't say where they were headed, but if they were heading to Alaska or planning to take up water ice climbing, I'd make a different recommendation. Even on Liberty Ridge, I used a second tool for only a few hundred feet and by that I'm not suggesting that I would recommend a minimal ice tool for the second tool on that particular route, but I think one could get by quite adequately. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 kakeandjelly said: Considering a route such as Liberty Ridge, where you will likely run into some fairly steep ice and hard snow... Â Use whatever you did the last time you were on a route with fairly steep ice and hard snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Ask this guy about tools: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 AmberBuxom said:50 cm is only 10 more than a standard framing hammer (the primary tool of choice for carpenters). choke up already. Â get a straight shaft hammer ice axe and call it a second tool. I've used my 50cm straight shaft to pound nails (both household & pitons). It's not a disadvantage at all - alot more versatile IMHO than the 3rd tools everyone seems to love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Some will opt for light weight and less of a brush-anchor on the back of their pack; others want the Cadillac ice tool and most advanced leash. The bottom line is that pretty much any second tool will work for just about any climb. I've done some of the hardest alpine ice climbs of my career with what most people would say were inadequate tools just because those are what I had with me at the time, and I've successfully wallowed up soft snow with a bent-shaft waterfall tool. Consider the trade-offs, take whatever you like, and don't worry that the wrong choice of tools is going to prevent you from reaching the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Â Bulldog...It comes in a short version. It's heavy...I like it, you can actually use it for something besides picking your nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 That looks like a decent tool, Lammy. The pick looks like it sticks out far enough it might even work in neve without swapping it for an alpine pick, and weight is generally a good thing when you actually are going to use the thing. How short is the "short version?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 That's the baby!! Â This is my second tool for most Cascade climbs. Unless I expect more than a pitch of hard ice, this goes with me because it is lightweight and can pound a pin if necessary. My first tool is an old 57.5 cm (mutant) blue Chouinard X-15 with replaceable classic pick. If I need two real ice tools, then I use the BD BRS x-15 STRAIGHT shaft with alaska picks. Personally I don't get the obsession with bent shafts for the cascade alpine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 i don't think larry the tool climbs, first or second Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 mattp said: That looks like a decent tool, Lammy. The pick looks like it sticks out far enough it might even work in neve without swapping it for an alpine pick, and weight is generally a good thing when you actually are going to use the thing. How short is the "short version?" Â Matt, Â I don't know the exact length, I bought it used at 2nd Wind. But it is about the same as that Red Grivel thing. about 3/4 the length of a regular ice tool. Â I use the bulldog as my third tool on waterfall ice and as a second tool on more serious glacier stuff. It has enough weight that you can actualy get good sticks in solid blue ice, and pound a picket in dense stuff. Â I used to carry that Grivel thing as a third tool, until I broke a pick and actually had to use it mid pitch (soloing). I opted to use the broken pick instead of the Grivel third tool, it was that bad...I sold it after that trip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Lambone said: I used to carry that Grivel thing as a third tool, until I broke a pick and actually had to use it mid pitch (soloing). I opted to use the broken pick instead of the Grivel third tool, it was that bad... Â What kind of climbing were you doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Twin Falls, in Hyalite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I can well imagine why you wouldn't like that short, light tool with a narrow shaft and tiny pick on it on steep water ice, particularly if it was cold outside. But that is not something that you will encounter on a standard cascades alpine climb -- at least not in the summer, anyway. More likely would be a short bit of firn ice, or a blocking crevasse or something. Would that tool be wholly inadequate for a little bit of climbing on a climb where it otherwise remains in or on your pack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Lambone, for WATER ice you should have filed the pick to a more appropriate configuration vs. selling it. But for the cascades, the tool is perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 David_Parker said: Lambone, for WATER ice you should have filed the pick to a more appropriate configuration vs. selling it. But for the cascades, the tool is perfect. Â I never had a problem with mine. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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