Paul_Warner Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Hey Everyone, I know this was a formerly (and formally) closed thread, but I can't help it. In the new Patagucci spring catalog, there is one of those normally wonderful little vignettes about outdoor adventure and soul-revealing moments written by Mark Twight. In it, he writes about doing the Czech Direct on the South Face of Denali. I was under the impression that the team left malfunctioning stoves behind on the route (read: littering). But in the Patagucci piece, he is quoted as saying "even though the stoves weren't functioning, we took them along with us." It doesn't surprise me that he would try to greenwash the affair, given Patagonia's commitment to environmental causes, but I have one big question: Did he ever place, in writing, the fact that they left the stove(s) behind?? If so, he's a big fat liar. I don't care how great a climber he is, but without integrity and honesty, he earns nothing but my disdain. If I'm wrong about the way he's portrayed this incident, I'm sorry. But if it turns out that he is changing his story to satisfy his corporate sponsors, screw him, and I'm sorry he is a representative for the "state of the sport". Paul Warner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wydrav13 Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 twight sucks, i would rather climb with a spice girl, maybe he should go climb st. helens. something more his skill level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordie Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 As silly as I find the Twight threads I have to put my two cents in. I was lucky enough to spend time with Mark at the Bozeman Ice Fest this year. He was the most personable, helpful, friendly instructor one could ever hope for. A few days later we ran into him at a local gear shop and talked for an hour or so. Say what you will about Dr. Doom, the legend, but Mark is a decent guy, who we would all be lucky to have as a friend or neighbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ade Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Well there's a turn up for the books... Someone has actually met Mr Twight and he turns out to be an OK guy. As opposed to a load of people who've never met him calling him an ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 I also spent time with Mark Twight at the Bozeman Ice festival in 1998 and again in 2000. I agree completely with Geordie. He was friendly and outgoing, eager to talk with anyone. I detected very little trace of ego, which completely surprised me. Most of the professional climbers at these festivals can't be bothered with bumblies like me, but Twight was an excellent teacher. I belayed a middle aged woman who had never climbed before and was very uncomfortable. Twight was amazingly patient and encouraging with her. In person he is a great guy. I know that doesn't necessarily fit his image, but personally I am not very interested in image. I really don't know the truth about the issue of leaving stuff behind on Denali. But I have seen people do a lot worse in a lot less dire circumstances. Just by existing we have an impact, it's a matter of degree, not a black and white issue. Let he who has clean hands cast the first stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wydrav13 Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 i haven't met the twight man, but yes he is an amazing climber. and yes if i were in his shoe i would leave gear behind just like i would pound in a piton if i had to. however, he shouldn't be trash talking the people doing the west butt on denali either, most people cant shell out the money to make it there, we don't all have these sponsers paying for us to go there. maybe he should lighten up a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highclimb Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Geordie and Wolfboy, thanks for sharing. Aidan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_e Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Regardless of his ethics, he is an amazing climber, that I can respect. If he did in fact leave trash behind on a route that sucks and I would be pissed if I came across it. However, I can't say that I might not leave stuff behind on a big mountain if I was unable to carrry it off, if it was a life or death situation. It sounds like he had a choice though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 I have ran into Twight 3 times. Everytime he was very sweet. He even signed a shirt for my daughter. In Alaska last spring he brought a new stove back from Talkeetna for a friend of ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_a Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Ditto on Mr. Twight being a hell of guy. I met him last year and I was amazed at how approachable he was and how friendly he was to everyone. No ego, great sense of humor, and more crazy climbing stories than I've heard from anyone before. If you've never met the guy, you have no grounds to rip on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wydrav13 Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 hey guess what he has no grounds ripping on other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 I too want to thank everybody who shared their personal experience with Mark Twight. I admire the guy for pushing the limits and inspiring others. As to sponsErs, they don't fall out of the clear blue sky. One has to be good enough to be sponsored and be able to communicate that appropriately (spell-checkers help...). Rafael Haroutunian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highclimb Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 True, True Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowleopard_x Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Curious, I looked it up and read it all over again (Climbing, #199). Here are some quotes: "We planned to ditch gear as it became superfluous: the rack, a rope, useless stoves. armchair intellectuals will shout ethical opposition to this behavior, but until such critics confront the likelyhood of death they can't understand how easily ethics are traded for continued existence. Honor means winning, which requires surviving." At no place does he state in the article that they actually ditched stoves, even fuel canisters. However, later he notes, near the top of the climb: "The slope laid back so I ran on blunt frontpoints until I was out of rope, then shouted for them to move with me while I continued tugging." "What about the anchor?" "Leave it. We're done". I shouted back. House also dropped a tool on the route. Far from littering. Of note: While I firmly disagree with his statement on justifying littering, ie. that it's acceptable if you're good, and in a hard spot, and I can't disagree more with the thought that "honor means winning", aside from dumping the anchor, nowhere in the article does he state that they actually dumped any stoves or fuel behind, only the anchor when near the top, and totally wasted. Later in the article he glosses over having spent 24 hours being nursed back to health by the Rangers at 14k. Something he was roundly criticized for, having spoken so harshly in regard to normal climbers just climbing the West Buttress. Complex man, to say the least. I was wholly put off by, and still am, his "arrogant attitue" (his words), and agree with the many that his article makes him come off as an "elitest prick" (his words, again). I will however credit him for writing a detailed book, chock full of advanced climbing techniques. For those who have not read it, what I really recommend is Steve House' article in the 2000 AAC Journal (pg 157), as House really does convey what I think Twight was getting at, but was overshadowed by his snobbiness: That the vision to make bold climbs, such as those done by the likes of Kurtyka, Loretan, Messner & Habaler, Kuzkucka, etc. just aren't being done by Americans much these days. Replaced by big budget, TV production type climbs. A very worth discussion indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Odd Guy - he does put up some incredible climbs though. Twight's got a new book coming out this spring "Confession's of a Serial Climber" - Chesslerbooks has it listed in thier catalog, though I don't believe it's out yet. Be interesting to see what he says in there. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 There are many Americans out there doing many hard ass climbs. Many more than you think. Many of them are not known because they rarely write about it or talk about it beyond their inner circle. They are not sponsored by high profile companies and they climb in areas that lack the media attention. Carlos Buhler, and many of his climbing partners are excellent examples. In the summer of 1999 Buhler and Mark Price did a wicked hard new route on Sula Grande in the Cordillera Huayhuash. (You know, the only ascent since Joe Simpson's epic) and yet no one even blinked. Buhler and Price just didn't see a need to blow his own horn too loudly. That and the media can't even pronounce Cordillera Huayhuash. There are many more out there and up there. Moving too fast and light to carry sat phones and banners. Too focused to write books and brag about themselves in patagonia catalogues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Carlos Buhler cool. How bout that SE face of Ama Dablam? Lightning route? very cool. Marc/k Twight cool. Reality Bath? Beyond good and Evil? The Gift that keeps...? OOOOH! I guess, my point being, we shouldn't automatically celebrate the silent hardman and dis the must-tell-all writer. writing about climbing well is challenging and big props to those who can. Twight is always fun to read whether he intends to be or not. if no hardmen wrote about their climbing I would suffer for lack of things to read!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highclimb Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Hey Dru, you cant forget Deprivation on the North Buttress of Mt. Hunter, VERY COOL! Aidan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 I think that maybe Paul Warner and wdrav13 should check their facts a little more before slamming someone. I also reread the Climbing article. Twight never said they left anything other than one anchor and a dropped tool. I see no inconsistency or lying. Twight is a straight shooter and if he says he didn't leave the stove, I believe him. Correct me if I'm wrong Paul, but haven't you left a few bolts behind? I have never placed a bolt. I abhor them. Therefore my hands are cleaner than yours and I decree that Paul Warner should be boiled alive in eel piss. Not really, but you get my hint. Climbers leave behind bolts, pitons, rappel slings, feces, toilet paper, and lots of other things in non-life threatening situations. Look at your own actions before you condemn others. And wydrav13 also needs to reread the article. Twight was bashing posers, yuppies that pay a guide to haul them up a non-technical route, show up with 500 pounds of brand new gear and then swagger around like they are hot shit alpinists. I think Twight has every right to bash people like that. I have met Twight and I am completely convinced he would never bash anyone for lack of skill or experience, unless they copped an attitude with him. I believe, in fact I would bet wydrav13's left testicle, that if me and my bumbly friends put together a West Butt climb and ran into Twight up there he would be friendly, encouraging and happy to give advice if we asked for it. I don't mean this to be a vicious personal attack on Paul Warner and wydrav13. I have met Paul and he seems like a nice guy, even if he has placed a few bolts (just kidding). The point is, if you are going to bash someone, bash them for what they say and do, not what you think they might have done, or your misinterpretations of what they have said. And sniff your own flatus before you condemn others. And please, before anyone else critizes Twight's attitude, please think about what he is saying. When Twight criticizes the state of climbing for the most part I think he is refering to other elite/professional climbers or those that PRETEND to be. You want to see some attitude, look at the threads 'Sport Climbing for the new millenium' and 'Ice climbing etiquette.' Half the people that replied to the latter seem to think if they are better than someone else, they can put their life at risk by climbing above them, without discussing it first. I really doubt Twight would pull crap like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Warner Posted February 28, 2001 Author Share Posted February 28, 2001 To anyone who cares, In no way did I intend my post to be construed as a personal attack on Mr. Twight. I've had the opportunity to go out for a couple of beers with him after he gave a slide show, and I also found him to be friendly, approachable, and full of amazing, funny stories. The point of my post (and it seems I've somewhat accomplished it) was to stimulate thoughtful dialogue concerning his comments in the Climbing magazine article and the Patagonia catalog, and how that kind of attitude/position may be damaging to all climbers in the long run. My hands are certainly not clean when it comes to leaving gear behind in the mountains. I was forced to rap off a picket on Mt. Robson, and I've left my share of V-threads on ice climbs. However, these weren't premeditated actions. To approach a climb with the intent to ditch any gear that becomes a burden (empty fuel bottles, malfunctioning stoves, whatever) strikes me as antithetical to the "Leave No Trace" philosophy that anyone playing in the outdoors should embrace. Look at what a pigsty Everest has become. Admittedly, Twight does routes that almost defy comprehension due to their physical and psychological difficulty, but that's no excuse for what is basically littering (and in relatively pristine settings, at that). ALL climbers and outdoor funhogs need to be concerned about the image they portray in the popular press, lest we find ourselves shut out. (The recent controversy over fixed anchors is a case in point) We need to police (I hate that word, but there it is) ourselves to maintain access, and most of all, promote meaningful discourse regarding issues of concern. I'm sorry if I came off as trying to be "holier-than-Twight", or mean-spirited. I just want to be able to keep climbing in the areas I love, and areas I want to explore, for a long time..... PW ------------------ Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highclimb Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Paul, nicely said Aidan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 i heard that all those photos are backwards using mirrors. and he didn't even climb the central coulior of the nw rib on the south buttress of the north peak's nw east facing ridge. and that at the time the said incidnet happend he was currently helping shear baby goats for a outward bound reunion feast in the sw corner of the northern panhandle of florida. or was it he was helping lay brick for a americorp in the upper central midwest ohioian mtns? not sure, i check the back issue of x-treme scrambler mag. mike do you still have that copy handy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowleopard_x Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Good point Rod. Buhler is a total stud. And you are right about how he hardly every blows his own horn, if at all. He has written very few articles even. I believe 2 years ago R&I had an article pointing out the best climbers in each aspect of the sport, they called Carlos the best US mountaineer. So at least some of us are watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 I agree with Rodchester. Nothing makes me happier than being let into a circle of excellent climbers, with many incredible ascents, that the world does not know. To each his own... I would love to get paid to climb for a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeadam Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Erik you have always exceeded my expectations of you. This ones for you bro! http://alpinelite.com/climbingbumFEBRUARY.htm Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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