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pope

Dark Ages

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catbirdseat said:

I think the important issue is not just whether the banter is obnoxious, but WHERE it is posted. The Spray forum has a very high tolerance level for obnoxiousness. That tolerance falls off somewhat in Climbers forum and then to its very lowest level in Route Reports. Although Trask, Sphinx, and Dru can be obnoxious at times, I have observed that they are (usually) more careful what they do outside of Spray forum.

True, dat. snaf.gif

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Sphinx said:

 

But I don't understand how an attorney would have a 'juvenile understanding' of logic. Clarification, please? rolleyes.gifmoon.gif

Perhaps in my discipline the standard of logic is higher.

 

Sphinx said:

Oh, and when did I become the poster child of cc.com spray? I thought Dru and Trask were the ringleaders. confused.gif

 

This is a distinction that you have won through enormous effort and not a little talent.

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Perhaps in my discipline the standard of logic is higher.

 

Actually, logic itself is a standard that applies to all disciplines of scientific inquiry in the same manner. See Kant's Logic; he's the expert.

 

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Legal matters at every level are frequently decided by the collective opinions of members of a jury or legislature or whatever. Each member's opinion is subject to the limitations of his experience, his perception and his bias. Attorneys are trained not only in scientific inquiry, but also in the art of manipulating the emotions of those who collectively decide legal outcomes.

 

There are no such "decisions by opinion" in mathematics. There is only logic.

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pope said:

Legal matters at every level are frequently decided by the collective opinions of members of a jury or legislature or whatever. Each member's opinion is subject to the limitations of his experience, his perception and his bias. Attorneys are trained not only in scientific inquiry, but also in the art of manipulating the emotions of those who collectively decide legal outcomes.

 

There are no such "decisions by opinion" in mathematics. There is only logic.

So why is Dwayner so illogical?

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pope said:

Legal matta's at every level be frequent-like decided by da collective opinions

o' memba's o' some jury o' legislature o' whateva'. Each memba's opinion be

subject t' da damn limitashuns o' wassups 'espuh'ience, wassups puh'cepshun an'

wassups bias. Attorneys be trained not only in scientific inquiry, but also in

da art o' manipulatin' da damn emoshuns o' dose-dair who collective-like decide

legal outcomes.

 

Dair be no such "decisions by opinion" in mathematics. Dair be only logic.

 

 

 

werd my brutha!!

hahaha.gif

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pope said:

There are no such "decisions by opinion" in mathematics. There is only logic.

 

Is that why you, like Dwayner, have been completely unwilling to engage in an honest and direct discussion of an issue without resorting to put-downs, hyperbole, and diverson?

 

We were talking about how you believe that Dwayner was shut down because of his position on the bolting issue, rather than how he was expressing himself. Now you are either (1) putting me down by saying I don't know how to engage in logical discourse, (2) extending your argument to how all attorney's manipulate the truth, or (3) changing the subject completely (perhaps all three). I think I may be through with this discussion because, as our hero Trask noted yesterday, it is a waste of time to engage in pointless debate on this website.

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Matt, I am also no longer going to argue with these guys about this. I think I've been pretty clear in my statements, and all they can do is spin it, avoid the obvious, and make falsities. I know I'm right and they are wrong.

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Thanks for the answer Jon (what does your signature mean anyway BTW?)

 

So this may be pushing it a bit, but the empirical-minded scientist in me want's to see if this exercise has proven fruitful. Are we now able to have a decorous discussion on bolting issues?

 

Let's try it! <- link to interesting (?) bolt discussion topic.

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Ursa_Eagle said:

Al_Pine said:

Thanks for the answer Jon (what does your signature mean anyway BTW?)

 

Smokin' the reefer!

 

The opening scene to that movie cracks the shit out of me smile.gif

 

fwstatic.jpg

Supertroopers

 

 

Smokin' the reefer!

 

The opening scene to that movie cracks the shit out of me smile.gif

 

 

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My two cents.

 

I hope Dwayner got a warning before his ban and not just an outright ban.

 

I do however hopes he can return. He provided much insight to me over some middle eastern matters and a different perspective on bolting.

 

I knew from reading several of his posts that he was interested in keeping the quality of this climbing website in check by having the spray section.

 

However, since I am not a huge lurker, I do not know what befell his actions if he was spraying outside of the spray section.

 

I do appreciate spray being kept in the spray section. This will add to the quality of the site.

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mattp said:

pope said:

There are no such "decisions by opinion" in mathematics. There is only logic.

 

Is that why you, like Dwayner, have been completely unwilling to engage in an honest and direct discussion of an issue without resorting to put-downs, hyperbole, and diverson?

 

We were talking about how you believe that Dwayner was shut down because of his position on the bolting issue, rather than how he was expressing himself. Now you are either (1) putting me down by saying I don't know how to engage in logical discourse, (2) extending your argument to how all attorney's manipulate the truth, or (3) changing the subject completely (perhaps all three). I think I may be through with this discussion because, as our hero Trask noted yesterday, it is a waste of time to engage in pointless debate on this website.

 

OK, try to follow the thread MattP. Here's where the question of logical facility first appeared:

 

"Pope has no interest in logic or even in presenting his case. Here, as in the bolting threads, he seeks only to grandstand and cause trouble."

 

Now, I responded to this accusation by saying that your understanding of logic was only juvenile (a balanced response). Sphinx responded by asking how I could make such a suggestion, since you MattP are an attorney. My response about the nature of your profession was not intended as an insult. I rather admire the work you guys do. I just think it might be a little outside the circle of pure logic.

 

Yes, the discussion digressed, but not by my impetus. We still don't know how Dwayner's obnoxious contributions qualify him in any way for the extreme action taken by .......who did ban Dwayner, anyway?

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I try to avoid the politics but this is quite sad.

 

Dwayner brings a perspective on climbing through the decades.

Myself as a young rock climbing teenage upstart in the 80's, Dwayner's stories fueled the fire for me and many other younger climbers. His tales of adventure led many to go on to pursue adventures into the ranges. Dwayer would always bring the perspective of adventure to life. Whether it be a tale of huge falls on scary nail ups or getting lost in caves.

And to be honest, I've seen Dwayner in days of yore climb stuff in a pair of 3 dollar flip flops that probably most of those who despise him on this site would fall off in their rock shoes.

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Jens said:

I try to avoid the politics but this is quite sad.

 

Dwayner brings a perspective on climbing through the decades.

Myself as a young rock climbing teenage upstart in the 80's, Dwayner's stories fueled the fire for me and many other younger climbers. His tales of adventure led many to go on to pursue adventures into the ranges. Dwayer would always bring the perspective of adventure to life. Whether it be a tale of huge falls on scary nail ups or getting lost in caves.

And to be honest, I've seen Dwayner in days of yore climb stuff in a pair of 3 dollar flip flops that probably most of those who despise him on this site would fall off in their rock shoes.

Unfortunately, speaking as a young climber and skier of this generation, Dwayner does nothing but annoy me. It's great that he was an inspiration to some people, but he seems to have lost that gift. My heros are those who don't use juvenile insults to antagonize those they don't agree with. I can't remember a single instance where Dwayner posted somethat that was even remotely interesting or inspiring. Too bad...I guess.

 

I never claimed to be a good climber, and the fact that Dwayner might be better than I has absolutely no impact on my views of him.

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Jens said:

I try to avoid the politics but this is quite sad.

 

Dwayner brings a perspective on climbing through the decades.

Myself as a young rock climbing teenage upstart in the 80's, Dwayner's stories fueled the fire for me and many other younger climbers. His tales of adventure led many to go on to pursue adventures into the ranges. Dwayer would always bring the perspective of adventure to life. Whether it be a tale of huge falls on scary nail ups or getting lost in caves.

And to be honest, I've seen Dwayner in days of yore climb stuff in a pair of 3 dollar flip flops that probably most of those who despise him on this site would fall off in their rock shoes.

 

Just curious where you heard these inspiring tales? PLU? Spire Rock? UW Rock? Surely not in the gym.

 

I've met a few climbers that climb at a very high standard, and the most inspiring and admirable thing about most of them was their humility and their gracious demeanor amongst their less talented or accomplished brethren. Perhaps your experience with the man was different because most of your encounters with him were offline, and your impessions are based on that, as it is hard for me to believe that you would hold him in such high esteem as a result of either the content or the tone his contributions on this website - which is all that the majority of the folks that post here have to go on.

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cracked said:

Unfortunately, speaking as a young climber and skier of this generation, Dwayner does nothing but annoy me. It's great that he was an inspiration to some people, but he seems to have lost that gift. My heros are those who don't use juvenile insults to antagonize those they don't agree with. I can't remember a single instance where Dwayner posted somethat that was even remotely interesting or inspiring. Too bad...I guess.

 

I never claimed to be a good climber, and the fact that Dwayner might be better than I has absolutely no impact on my views of him.

 

Lay off Dwayner you big little punk.

 

That goes for the rest of you too madgo_ron.gif

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Fleb,

I don't know if you are 100% earnest in your post, but I should tell you that I agree: I'm not interested in waging a personal campaign against Dwayner. I didn't want him to continue stirring up animosity and stiffling conversation on this website, and I may feel the need to respond if Pope or somebody else feels the need to attack me or complain about how the site is managed with respect to this issue. Dwayner HAS a point and I retain significant respect for him; I don't wish to make him into some kind of laughing stock or pariah. (The same goes for Pope.)

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