Terminal_Gravity Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 TR = Trip Reflection Loose, very wet, five two, ice of blue I like the ridges, the curves, the little points sticking up, the cracks and the ribs as much as the next guy. But it’s a beautiful face with clean lines that really excites me the most. I think that the west gully of the north face is the most aesthetic line on Hood. I’ve climbed Hood a bunch of times, but I had managed to fail four times in a row until the Friday before last. Here’s the score... South Side - inexperienced partner - Failure Reason: very high winds East Gully NF - Willstrickland - Failure Reason: Slab avy potential Wyeast - experienced partner - Failure Reason: She got a bad migraine & passed out Yokum Ridge - Texplorer - We were fucking stupid and tried it in November! Emotionally, this all may have added up to the wrong set of priorities. I wanted to succeed, I wanted the West Gully and I wanted it solo without gear. I made the summit, uninjured; but somehow I feel as if I failed on a deeper level. I am writing this for selfish reasons. If any of you have sage thoughts or have had similar reflections please share them with me. My head is somewhat fucked up and I am reeling with thoughts of what form my climbing should take in the future. The Report... Thursday, 6/26, I rushed through my deliveries in Portland and headed up to Cloud Cap in the beer truck. I met an extreme skier from Utah that had been on the Cooper, Sunshine and the East Gully the prior days and he said that the snow was solid, bomber and nothing was falling. I got some fitful sleep and started up at an easy pace, 12:30 Friday morning. The hike to the bergshrund was pleasant with a moderate breeze. It was above freezing but the snow was solid. I turned the berg dead center by hiking up the snow cone that had come from the central debris gully. The gully was like an eight foot deep chimney cut in the snow field from wet fallings. It was really very cool. About 20 feet up I turned to see the brick red crescent moon coming up to the east. Peering out of the gully, I could see Adams and Raineer bloodied with subtle reflected light. Half way up the “chimney” I exited to the left and climbed to the bottom of the lower step. With just a little ice to help I climbed wet rock about 15 feet and crossed through pouring water, left onto more snow. At the top of that, I reached a near vertical rock section. There was quite a bit of water coming down the center, maybe thirty gallons a minute. The holds just to the right looked positive and I started carefully up. They were very loose, If I were to fall I would have bounced a bit and ended up in the Berg. I down climbed back to the snow. While I was standing there in the dark, reviewing my options, the first rock of the day, a melon, hit very near. I never saw it, but I smelled the sulfur. I realized that it was prudent to make a decision fast. I traversed through the water to the left side. The rocks were more solid, more wet and more rounded. A dozen quick and careful moves later, grabbing with my tools and gloves, I reached the relatively low angle central field. As the sky brightened the wind picked up dramatically and an almost continuos shower of small rocks started pouring from up high. I was able to stay left and avoid them completely. I passed the upper step on the left and reached the snow field. At that point it was full light and I had to cross through the falling rocks. I had only seen two cantaloupes, the rest were lemons to currants. I paused to see if there was any periodicity to the fallings. There was not, but it seemed that once one fell, others fell for about 45 seconds. At the start of a pause, I started the dash. Two thirds of the way another barrage started. I find it difficult to dodge when I am front pointing so I just took it. Three lemons passed me, my helmet got thunked by a kumquat and I was peppered by blueberries. Lucky I guess. Other then high winds the summit and decent down Cooper was without note. I took my time, curiously un-elated about the summit. The Reflection: I climb with partners but I also solo. I solo rock and alpine, roped and un-roped. But it is un-roped alpine that drives me and fills my soul. To mis-quote Messner; being in the wild, alone, testing your skills and feeling your limits is to look into the most perfect mirror a person can find. That is the greatest reason I climb. I get immense personal reward by climbing. It adds value and focus to the rest of my life. It is being self reliant on a mountain that rewards me the most. Some may think that any soloing is crazy, risky and just plain stupid. It can be, but not the way I do it. I’m prudent. I turn around a lot. I don’t get above my head. I don’t climb anything un-roped I can’t safely reverse. My questions to myself are “What was different about Hood this time?” “Was a success actually a failure?” and if so “How do I still climb more interesting stuff and avoid unacceptable risk?” It wasn’t until I was back down to the truck, out of my boots, brewing coffee and drinking a shot of bourbon that I had a crash of emotions. On the climb I was focused, calm and in the zone. (The skill of a soloist I guess) I’m not a great climber but I do know how far I can push my limits and I don’t get sketched out anymore. The crux was not technically severe, maybe 5.2, but it could have been 3rd or 5.6 for all I know. I was not focusing on how hard, just on not falling. The difficulty was not the problem, nor the exposure, nor the wetness or even the rock fall, really. Being alone in the dark was not an issue. But somehow the combination and the level of commitment was too much. My desire may have tricked me into failing to climb with reasonable safety. I think I did cheat on my wife and I think I was unfair to my daughter. How do the great climbers find a balance? How do you? Loose, very wet, five two, ice of blue...and a heart of cold stone. - steve BTW, anybody want a partner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Dude, your climbing is YOURS. You climb for your own reasons, you accept risks based on your experience and what you want out of the trip. I've read that climbing is the most selfish activity. I believe it and will never apologize for it - it is for YOU. Those that are in your life must accept that. As climbers, most of us have to push the boat out from the dock a ways every once in a while - the action is the juice, baby. You made it back alive and had an enriching experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Hey TG - Great TR. I don't know if I really suscribe to Greg W's "fuck everyone" else attitide when it comes to climbing. I do believe people can't change their most basic passions to suit someone's else's needs, but I also believe in balance and compromise, particularly as a kid whose father had a climbing and traveling addiction. Find your own balance, man and may it see you to the tops and bottoms of many beaufitul mountains (err ... women?) to come. And I'll tie in with you whenever you'll have me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Winter said: Hey TG - Great TR. I don't know if I really suscribe to Greg W's "fuck everyone" else attitide when it comes to climbing. I do believe people can't change their most basic passions to suit someone's else's needs, but I also believe in balance and compromise, particularly as a kid whose father had a climbing and traveling addiction. Find your own balance, man and may it see you to the tops and bottoms of many beaufitul mountains (err ... women?) to come. And I'll tie in with you whenever you'll have me. "fuck everyone" attitude? I said the same thing you did, just in my own direct way. There IS balance in everything; that is when my climbing is the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnHigh Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Steve, listen to the voice inside. It is obviously saying something, you just need to figure out exactly what the message is. Climbing, family, risk, resonsibility. Also, I'm reading into your TR that you had expectations of the climb that were not realized. And lastly, you got the Hood season's all turned around. Climbing Yocum during a dry Fall season and the NF early in the Summer. You're timing is making for unpleasent climbing conditions and the risk factor is substantally increased. Go ahead and tell me to FO with my shit advise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Terminal_Gravity said: I think I did cheat on my wife and I think I was unfair to my daughter. How do the great climbers find a balance? How do you? I have intercourse with the mountains, so yes, I cheat on my wife too. Yes, I spend the time in the mountains other than with my children. Have I been caught in precarious positions without regard to the future of my children without having a father? Yes. But I have always thought I knew what I was doing. Hell, I almost died last October. This is a hobby. And yes, it is selfish. Balance? Whatever you decide is a balance. At the time you make a decision you will always believe that is the best decision. Why would you ever decide to make a wrong decision? Nice trip report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyclimb Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Mountians are funny in that they reflect your motives and reasoning.(like a mirror,pond...etc.) Good, happy, group dynamics are what make GROUP trips fun. Combined power and judgement to overcome obstacles together. Soloing is you. Your power. Your discretion. Your motives. Why are you climbing? Analyize your motives for soloing. If you find the answer is anger, frustration, or a mere means of proving something, you will never summit, but only climb in bad style. Climb for the right reasons and your solo's will not be CHEATING, and will be rewarded with a fullfillment. You will know you accomplished something pure. A test for your motivation is when you look at the crux, which was obviously the rock band, did it present itself to you as an opportunity, or an obstacle?? I write this because it has taken me many climbs in the last 6 months to analyze a solo gone bad for myself. I was soloing Sargents Ridge on Shasta in February. A wind slab gave way, and i slid 400 vertical feet on 60 degree ice into a large basin. Besides a nasty ice burn in my back i managed to retreat unscathed. This is the first time i guess i have really written or said much about it, but the best thing is to learn from MISTAKES, and to recognize what causes them. Then go out to climb another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvs Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Good tr, made me think (ow!) I'll go out on a limb and say you crossed your own line on this one by climbing through the rockfall. Don't agonize about your family - they could lose you even if you were being guided up the DC. Satisfy your own sense of good style and you'll be able to keep soloing the alpine routes with pride in your achievement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 "I eschew ropes... and solo...nakid in the face of the overwhelmin' blizzard...for I am pure..." - Roger, Hyperconschuss Master of the Extreeem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Yocum in November and the North Face in late June??? WTF??? No wonder you're worried about the wife and kids..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Greetings TG and others, After our little excursion on the 1st gendarme of Yokum last november I thought alot about this same thing. Thinking back I wonder what business I had leading that chossfest. There is something about flirting with disaster that appeals to me I guess. I have had this urge to "push it" since I was young. Maybe its like a gambling addiction. If you have the addiction, you always have the addiction. I don't know how many times I have said, "I am never doing that again," and found myself once again runnout on jingus pro looking at a big whipper or climbing sans rope up some new route. For instance, this last weekend I went up to Squamish to celebrate the 4th weekend Dru-style. We had been climbing on the apron and headed over to the smoke cliffs for some cragging action. It was there that I saw this really splitter "squamish .10a" fingercrack. My partners busied themselves with their harnesses and gear and whatnot and I began to feel a familiar urge. Though I knew this would be a cruiser route for me to lead I wondered if they would think bad of me soloing it. (is he crazy? are we going to have to watch him die, etc) The urge increased with each moment to a tingling frenzy in my fingertips. I just wanted to climb and was annoyed with waiting for them to lead it or to get all the gear ready. Then it happened. I put on my shoes, scrambled up the large step to the start of the climb, and very quitely began with little hesitation. My thoughts were like those of a teenage boy laying his eyes on his first Playboy. I sensed micro beads of sweat forming on my fingertips and attempted to mentally control the pores. I told myself that I would only go up as far as the locker jams would take me but deep down I think I knew I wouldn't come down. The route was actually quite good and while on the short climb I briefly experienced "the zone." It is cliche-ish but when things get really serious I feel more focused and relaxed. The rest of the world falls away and there is only calloused skin and the rock. It is almost as if my consciencousness is experiencing someone else's sensations. My mind has a carefree attitude toward any adverse action that might occur. Afterwards, it is all over very quickly. I am not saying I do this everyday or even regularly but it happens. I, like you, don't really know what to think about it. The other 99% of the time I am a pretty safe climber placing a decent amount of pro and doing what climbers do. What I have tried to do is to think about danger from outside the situation. When I am there, in the moment there are the urges and desires of this other me that, when back on the ground, seem like extreme temptations with danger. Unlike most who are inhibited by danger I am sometimes spurned-on by it. My best strategy has been to truly assess the REAL danger and try to minimize that to levels that will keep me alive and climbing for eons to come. We all know that many have played that same game and lost. It is hard though to just stop gambling when you love being the casino. I can only say that I try to play with style and enough caution to stay in the game for another round. So far so good- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted July 11, 2003 Author Share Posted July 11, 2003 Thank you all for the replies. They have helped solve some of my internal conflict. After I wrote this Wednesday I went out to a local cliff and soloed (top-roped) a couple hundred feet of 5.9 slab. Easy, solid climbing in a comfortable environment with only my demons to keep me company. It also seemed to clear up some strif. It was the first time I had climbed since Hood. 12 days off is a long time for me. Tex, Yokum did something different for me. I never really felt like we continued with inherent un-acceptable risk. I just felt that the climb and conditions were beyond my ability to climb with reasonable safety. Subtle difference, I know. But I think it is significant. Shuksan (via PM) pointed out that I should accept the possibility that I have two levels of "reasonable" risk. One for myself and one for my family. And they can be different. I think that was the case on the West Gully and is the culprit that stole the emotional success of the climb. The climb was easily within my personal alpine soloing comfort zone but the commitment and rockfall pushed it beyond what is fair to my family. Mtnhigh: I have taken a "twight-ian" attitude the past couple of years in my climbing on local and comfortable peaks. I think that I learn more and train better if I don't pay too much attention to conditions and weather on the mountains that I know. In the Wallowas I sometimes wait for the worst storms to climb a simple peak. I learn alot more about my gear (and myself) then if every thing was perfect. I am safer on big and significant mountains because of it. All that being said, I think you are right to bring up the fact that I should consider conditions more. That will help me keep the family and personal acceptable risk levels in the same place. I don't ever consider a peak, a route or a crux as something to conquer. They are friends that give me gifts, bring me enlightenment and help me fight gravity. I would rather die crossing a street than in the mountains; for to die in the mountains, is the ultimate climbing failure. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 I thought Twight said when rocks are falling stay the hell off the mountain. I see no reward for climbing things like Yocum out of season. Doesn't matter what skill you have on that dirt, you're just as likely to get the chop as someone you pick up off the street in those conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted July 11, 2003 Author Share Posted July 11, 2003 iain said: I thought Twight said when rocks are falling stay the hell off the mountain. I see no reward for climbing things like Yocum out of season. Doesn't matter what skill you have on that dirt, you're just as likely to get the chop as someone you pick up off the street in those conditions. No disagreement from me; Iain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 texplorer said: the smoke cliffs for some cragging action. It was there that I saw this really splitter "squamish .10a" fingercrack. Flying Circus? I ran into some other Seattle-ites camped out below that one and had to wait my turn. What a fantastic climb (I didn't solo it though). How did your friends react to you soloing it? Term.Grav. Great TR. One of my favorites I have read on CC.com. ***** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formaldehead Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Meanwhile, I was playing slip-a-roni with your old lady. Where's her TR???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redoubt Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Terminal_Gravity said: Tex, Yokum did something different for me. I never really felt like we continued with inherent un-acceptable risk. I just felt that the climb and conditions were beyond my ability to climb with reasonable safety. Subtle difference, I know. But I think it is significant. Two questions, TG. First, do you honestly feel that on Yokum you did not continue with "inherent un-acceptable risk?" Man, you left the parking lot with inherent unacceptable risk. Second, I keep reading the above quoted "subtle difference" you describe, and it is apparently over my head. Could you explain the difference you are talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted July 12, 2003 Author Share Posted July 12, 2003 Redoubt: Language may fail at some point to clearly convey subtle thoughts but I'll give it a try. First, on a sharp ridge a climber is unlikely to be exposed to naturely occuring rockfall. So, the risks come from oneselfs ( and one's partner's ) abilities. Not just technical ability and skill, but ability to figure out unusual gear usage, how to gage loose rocks (and their fall line) and the knowledge of what you definately can and maybe can't climb without falling. At some points both on Yokum and on the west gully I was climbing in the "you slip, you die" zone. I think that zone is reasonable. It might be hard to fathom, but, face it, we all climb in that zone some times. The difference is really only in how far toward our limits we are comfortable climbing in that zone. If you are strugling with that, try to think of an example you have climbed. Hiking on 15 degree soft snow immediatly above a gaping and huge cravasse, un-ropped is probably acceptable to the majority of the climbers on this board. So would walking on a sidewalk sized ledge above a 100 foot vertical drop or climbing the cable route on the backside of Half Dome. All are " you slip, you die". But you, as a climber, pay attention and you don't slip. The fact is, we all climb in that zone to some extent. One of my mantra's is "It doesn't matter if you fall 2 feet to the last bolt on a sport route or if your body splashes 1000 feet down a wall and your devistated family has to try find enough to bury...IF YOU DON'T FALL!". That is really the key to the skill of a prudent soloist. It sickens me to read on this board people trying to learn " how to fall". People!; learn how NOT to fall....sorry, I'll get off my soap box. On Yokum, Tex and I were both in that zone and mind set. With that has to come the willingness to turn tail, if prudence calls. So, I disagree, we did not leave the parking lot with "un-acceptable risk". However, we were indeed, over our heads before we left the parking lot. But I in no way regret giving it a try. The knowledge and experience gained was well worth it. I also, in no way, regret leaving the parking lot for the west gully. Unlike Yokum, however, because I became exposed to significant "natural" rockfall on a climb that had a lot of "you slip, you die" climbing not too far from my ability comfort zone, I should have immediatly sought the quickest escape once that first rock passed me. Because the exposure and commitment, combined with unforseen rockfall was "too much", regardless of my skill level. I now recognize that I am fortunate to have lived to learn from the experience/mistake and climb again. Shred got hit and injured by a rogue falling on the east gully under good conditions. That IS the risk we take when we choose to climb this stuff; and by so choosing, it becomes "acceptable" risk. But Mtnhigh is truly correct in implying that I should review my choice to climb this sort of route "off" condition. Back to Yokum. When I choose to decend, I was 50ish feet above questionable pro, with death fall potential on loose, snow dusting occluded choss. It might sound crazy to some, but I was fine and comfortable with the exposure. Indeed, it was very very close to my solo limit but still within it and I was still calm and collected. Internally struggling, but maintaining composure. I turned, not because I was not comfortable with going up but because I was not comfortable with climbing down If I had to. And, I could not be absolutely sure that I would not have to. That was the emotional crux and I did not decide to go up anyway...so in some ways, that climb was a success. The down climb WAS at my level of acceptable solo limit and it took me a long time to be careful enough. Poor Tex froze at the belay until I was stable enough to let him don his parka. So you see, if I were more skilled I could have safely pushed farther on Yokum, but I'm not. (I want to be) On the west gully the danger was not completely determined by my skill level so I shouldn't have climbed it even if I was more skilled. It was a tecnical success and an intelectual failure, where as Yokum was a technical failure and an intellectual success. I welcome further discussion, even if to just call "Bullshit", because these musings are somewhat new territory for me...and I see no reason to be solo. - TG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wade_meyer Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 The first line caught my attention. Then I realized you were talking about a mountain. I was going to quote something about experiance and bad judgement but I cannot remember exactly how the the statement goes. you probably know what I'm talking about though. Sounds like Mt. Hood has a thing for you too. Wade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redoubt Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Terminal_Gravity said: I welcome further discussion, even if to just call "Bullshit", because these musings are somewhat new territory for me...and I see no reason to be solo. - TG Well, TG, I appreciate your response, and since you welcome further discussion, I'll offer some. And what I say is worth what you're paying for it. I agree completely with the idea that the "you slip, you die" zone is common and, in many cases, completely reasonable. You explained it as well as I could, so I'll just leave it at that. No argument whatsoever. I also agree with your assessment, in hindsight, and in light of the time of season and high freezing level, that you should have turned back on the North Face once that first rockfall occurred. When I look at these two climbs (Yokum and N Face), though, I still would argue that they were both undertaken in conditions where they should not even have been considered. Especially Yokum. Full disclosure: I have climbed the N Face (under ideal conditions in March) but have never attempted Yokum Ridge. I have two guidebooks that mention YR. Here is what Thomas’ Oregon High says about it. "Rotten rock towers guard its crest. They cannot be climbed unless they are covered by a thick layer of rime ice." Here is what Smoot's Climbing the Cascade Volcanoes says about YR. "Periods of cold weather, with snow and ice cover, are prerequisites for climbing this route. Climbers attempting this route during any other conditions should expect continuous, copious rockfall and Class 5 climbing on nightmarishly loose rock." And, “This route has abundant loose rock, extreme rockfall hazard and bad protection. Take pitons and ice screws for luck if nothing else.” He also refers to it as a “suicide” route. Copious rockfall. Nightmarishly loose rock. It is route descriptions like this that made me say that you left the parking lot with unacceptable risk. Now, I'll be the first one to say that I don't consider either of these guidebooks to be the guiding light by which any of us should base our route choices. And I applaud any climbers who buck conventional wisdom and attempt what has not traditionally been considered climbable. But I do not applaud anyone who ignores a preponderance of evidence that says that a route involves a level of objective danger that makes attempting it foolish by any reasonable standards. I think YR, under the conditions you attempted it, is such a route. You seem to want to focus on your decision to turn around on YR as being the correct one. While I agree that it was a good decision, it was WAY too long in coming. I don't have your Yokum TR at hand, but I do remember it quite well (it made quite an impression). Before you took what was your final lead, you described the rockfall that came down as Tex was leading. After reading that, I simply could not believe that you chose to continue UP! Iain made an earlier comment with which I could not agree more. "I see no reward for climbing things like Yocum out of season. Doesn't matter what skill you have on that dirt, you're just as likely to get the chop as someone you pick up off the street in those conditions." You said "So you see, if I were more skilled I could have safely pushed farther on Yokum…" I disagree. Increased skill will not add meaningfully to your ability to safely negotiate that kind of rock. My impression is that Tex is a pretty skilled rock climber. Maybe he will, and maybe he will not, knock off less rock on a route like this as he gains more alpine experience, but he will never be able to climb that pitch safely in those conditions. No one can. When rock like that comes off on a route like that in conditions like that, it's not the fault of the leader. Any experienced alpine climber knows there is a limit to the control you have in areas of bad rock. The rockfall situation you described in your Yokum TR was far beyond any reasonable acceptable limit. Rather than thinking that more skill would have allowed you to go further, I'd suggest that your climbing skill should have led you to go climbing elsewhere that day. The point I am really trying to make here is that, while you seem to find some important difference between the natural rockfall on the North Face and leader-caused rockfall on Yokum, there is no functional difference between them when the leader can't avoid dumping rock on his belayer. Whether you are soloing in warm summer conditions on the N Face, or belaying a leader who is trying to negotiate rock that is as horrible as it gets on YR, rock is going to come down on you. Period. Doesn't matter where the rock came from if it's the rock that takes you out. Like most everyone else out there, I climb for many reasons. Like most everyone else out there, I fail miserably trying to articulate what those reasons are. I can say that, while sometimes I climb for training, or for exercise, or just to get away, or just to find some views or some sublime bivy site, I also sometimes pursue that class of climb that makes me feel most "accomplished" as a climber. Call them my hardman climbs. My hardman climbs may be someone else's walkups, and they may be someone else's Everests, but they are climbs that push me and make demands of me and test me as a climber. I think maybe these demands and tests are something that many of us look for. When I think of hardman climbs, I think of climbs that push climbers physically, technically and psychologically. I think of climbs that test a climber's ability to endure and suffer. I think of climbs that require excellent judgement and a high skill level in many respects. I think of climbs that push a climber's envelope. I applaud the efforts of many climbers these days to push what can be done car-to-car, and to pare down pack weight and equipment to the barest essentials. However, I do NOT think hardman climbs are those where the most notable characteristic is that they subject one to extreme objective danger, and I have to wonder if that objective danger is a characteristic that you find important. YR in its best shape might be a good hardman climb. YR in its worst shape is a suicide route. I think there is a logical end to the career of a climber who counts high objective danger as a worthy characteristic to look for in potential routes. Tex said earlier "We all know that many have played that same game and lost. It is hard though to just stop gambling when you love being the casino. I can only say that I try to play with style and enough caution to stay in the game for another round. So far so good-" "So far so good" is, unfortunately, not a good way to measure or assess one's judgment when it comes to what is acceptable objective risk while climbing. Someone who has successfully survived 10 rounds of Russian Roulette with a loaded pistol can say "so far so good," but their luck WILL eventually run out. So will the luck of a climber who consistently ignores objective hazards, or thinks that skill will somehow keep an avalanche or rockfall from taking them out. TG, I think you are like everyone else who is trying to find some challenge and fulfillment and gratification out in the mountains. But I honestly think you are leaning too much on high risk as the road to get there. There's enough inherent risk out there that we all get more of it than we usually want. I really hope you start looking to do climbs faster, or do climbs harder, or do climbs higher, or do climbs lighter or do climbs requiring more suffering, rather than looking to do climbs with greater objective risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted July 13, 2003 Author Share Posted July 13, 2003 Redoubt, Thank you for your well said and well considered thoughts. You weave a pretty convincing line of logic. I do know that a climber can dramitically improve their skill on loose rock and learn to get past it. I have honed that skill pretty well. You are absolutely correct in saying that there is a point that letting the shit fly is unavoidable or even required to get down to the more stable stuff. YR was deeply into that catagory. So, you are also correct in saying that my delination between "natural" rockfall and leader created rockfall is bogus. I admit I am wrong. As I have sought more challenging endevours I think I have tricked myself into thinking that increased objective danger is okay. You are right, it is not. Even though Yokum was very personally rewarding and enlightening for me ( and therefore somehow worth it); I dare say you have swayed me and I have changed my mind. I was wrong. It was a bad choice from the start. Thank you, again. My wife may owe you gratitude as well. I think I'll concentrate on "more suffering" in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Redoubt, Thanks for your insights. You are definetely correct about the "so far so good" bit. I was implying something slightly different, although after reading my post didn't truly portray what I was thinking. As of late I have been sticking to strictly vertical climbing on good rock. In fact since YR with TG I have only done one alpine climb since. When I said, "so good so far" I suppose I should have said something more along the lines of, "thank god I haven't killed myself in the learning process." Many young climbers feel that they need to somehow prove themselves or show that they are skilled. As a beginner I know that I was like this and was so anxious to get experience. I was very reluctant to EVER turn around because I saw it as a kind of weakness or inadequacy in my abilities. As a result I progressed and did get alot of good experience. Luckily I gained just enough technical skill and was just plain lucky enough to be tempered by the fire yet come out unscathed. I feel comfortable in many mediums of climbing now and definetely don't feel I have anything to prove to other climbers now. Nevertheless I still find myself pushing the limits from time to time. After thinking about my experience with TG on YR I have changed my attitude in several ways. First, we had never climbed together before. I know I had (and still have) alot of respect for TG and didn't want to let him down. I don't think that starting the climb was unreasonable given the fact that we were not sure what the route would be like in that situation. As we ascended I did not feel that climbing was all that scary or difficult until I led that horrendous pitch of the first gendarme. That IS where I made the biggest mistake. When I started climbing up and all kinds of shit was coming off I should have downclimbed off and retreated. Instead I carried on with my familiar mantra -it'll get better up just a little higher. Well, as you know it didn't. By the time the keg sized block came off I was commited and basically out of gear. It was a scary dance with the reaper that pitch and I am glad I pulled it off. When I made the anchor the climbing looked easy going on the next pitch. Little did I know it was all stacked choss.(Yes, more chossy than the normal Oregon choss) I think that TG was thinking the same -it'll get easier just a little further- as he waded across the vertical stacks of crumbs. Once he returned, we were left with no option but to retreat but I felt just as much danger going down as I had going up. My opinion after the fact is that we were unwise in our decision to attempt the climb when it was clearly out of season. That being said, I don't think it was unreasonable to think that we could climb it and I still think it can be climbed in those conditions (just not the first gendarme). I still have little respect for Smoot's opinion of the climb. It is, contrary to words, a reasonable route (in season) but does have long sections where pro will be marginal. Perhaps this year we will return to savor this prized route in better conditions. In the mean time I must be happy with one of my most glorious defeats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 texplorer said: ...TG and didn't want to let him down. Perhaps this year we will return to savor this prized route in better conditions. Tex, thanks for shareing your thoughts here. I think this might be a good lesson for everyone. "not wanting to let a partner down" might be a good reason not to puss out because of physical strain or suffering, but it should not be a reason to get into un-acceptable danger. We both learned from that. I intend to climb YR next winter and I can't think of a partner that I would rather climb it with, than you. (Well maybe Catherine Destiville ) Let's talk in February! Also; thanks again everyone, especially redoubt, for making this thread what I had hoped. It really has helped me sort out my thoughts on climbing. I think I will now have a much better chance to grow as a climber in the future without as getting into crazy/stupid spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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