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carolyn

This is NOT another sport vs trad debate!

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RuMR said:

you might change your mind monday? maybe, maybe not...my guess is that you will find it fun...maybe not enough to change your mind, maybe enough? Time will tell...

 

I'm doing penance beforehand, by hopefully pulling a bunch of bolts at a hidden, once-secret crag I found.

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ahhh don't do that...it just starts needless conflict...better to preemptively discuss it then to start a ken nichols bolt chopping war...nobody wins those...

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RuMR said:

ahhh don't do that...it just starts needless conflict...better to preemptively discuss it then to start a ken nichols bolt chopping war...nobody wins those...

 

The dude who put them in is going with. If gear is to be had...yank, yank...VIVA LA BLWB!!

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Greg_W said:

RuMR said:

ahhh don't do that...it just starts needless conflict...better to preemptively discuss it then to start a ken nichols bolt chopping war...nobody wins those...

 

The dude who put them in is going with. If gear is to be had...yank, yank...VIVA LA BLWB!!

 

Ok...sounds like its civil...not that anyone needs my "approval"...

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Greg_W said:

I'm doing penance beforehand, by hopefully pulling a bunch of bolts at a hidden, once-secret crag I found.

 

hahaha.gif

 

CAREFUL GREG, I HEARD THAT OLD GUY CAN GET VIOLENT WHEN CONFRONTED. YOU KNOW OUT IN THE BACKWOODS ANYTHING GOES.

 

AND THOSE BOLTS MIGHT BE HOLDING THE CHOSS TOGETHER!

 

 

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erik said:

DWYANER I HEARD A RUMOR ONCE YOU NAILED A POPULAR FREE ROUTE.

 

HOW CLEAN OF AN ETHIC IS THAT?

 

 

That never happened.

 

A couple of issues:

a) even if I did, this is an issues debate, not a finger-pointing round of hypocricy accusations which is a seperate issues. Even if I used pins on every route I've ever climbed, you might consider me a poor example as a messenger, but the issues remain the same. Like a druggy telling people not to do dope. Is his message to be discounted because he does it himself? Maybe not the best example but hopefully you'll see the point.

 

Have I clipped bolts? Sure. Was it appropriate? I could justify it from my own standards. I'm not 100% anti-bolt..they have their limited applications....very limited. Do I make a practice of climbing sport routes? Usually not for various reasons. What I have or have not done doesn't change the issues at hand.

 

SECONDLY....SPEAKING OF ETHICS....IS IT APPROPRIATE FOR YOU TO PUBLICLY SPREAD RUMORS? THE RUMOR YOU SPREAD IN YOUR CHARACTERISTIC CAPITAL LETTERS IS FALSE.

Edited by Dwayner

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I don't have answers. Maybe an analogy.

 

In the old days of mountaineering, no one had route information. Now we do. I guess if it weren't for the Beckey books I wouldn't be climbing. Beckey books are like the bolts....

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I WAS ASKING A QUESTION DWYANER.

 

AND YES THE MESSAGE IS DISCOUNTED, PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH.

 

YOU KNOW I USED TO THINK I WAS ALL TOUGH ON BOLTS, BUT INSTEAD OF ATTEMPTING TO SWAY THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS, I WENT OUT AND SAW WHAT THE RAGE WAS ALL ABOUT. AND GUESS WHAT MY FRIEND, IT WAS FUN!

 

AND TRAD CLIMBING, AID CLIMBING, BOULDERING, ALPINISM ALL HAVE IMPACTS. I BETCA THAT LICHEN YOU LIGHTLY SCUBBED WILL ONLY TAKE ANOTHER 100 YEARS TO REGAIN ITS POSITION.

 

NORTH RIDGE OF STUART HAS GARBAGE ON IT, HAS WALLS OF ROCK PILED UP, HAS TOILET PAPER, AND THE LICHEN IS SCRUBBED AND THERE IS TONS OF FIXED TAT AND OTHER MISC. FIXED JUNK. LOOKS LIKE A PRETTY BIG IMPACT TO ME. I CLIMBED THAT ROUTE KNOWING THERE WOULD BE OTHERS THERE, NO WILDERNESS FOR ME! LUCKILY THERE WAS ONLY ONE OTHER GROUP AND WE DIDNT SEE THEM TILL DARN NEAR THE TOP.

 

SO WHERE IS THE IMPACT?? IT IS EVERYWHERE. EVEN YOUR VAUNTED FRED BECKY DID HIS FAIR SHARE OF IMPACT.

 

I SAY GO SPORT CLIMBING WITH AN OPEN MIND(IS THAT POSSIBLE) AND THEN COME BACK REPORT TO US WHAT YOU THINK.............

 

 

 

 

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What do you have to say to my post, Dwayner? As I said, you have some good points to make about the proliferation of bolts and the dumbing down of climbing, but don't you recognize that few are going to listen to you while you preach from your pulpit about your complete contempt for the climbs and the climbing areas that probably 90% of today's climbers enjoy so much - and for the climbers themselves? Don't you think it is a little absurd to proclaim, as you have so many times, that you too could climb 5.13 if you were willing to hangdog like those cowardly chumps that call themselves climbers these days?

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Good job Sparky! You are slowly moving into a better argument! You are bored! Think about us who had to listen to your confusion until page 6! Good Karma points for everyone who lasted this long! I think most everyone agreed before the thread started that bolting can get out of hand. What has your discourse added to the debate? Not a lot although it did give you an opportunity to insult large classes of people and specific individuals such as myself.

 

The great revelation you have is:

Sport climbing by its nature is bolt-dependent. Some of us think that bolts should at best be used sparingly if at all.

 

I suggest you simply post those two sentences whenever you feel the need to enter the debate.

 

The difficult part of the debate is in getting people to work together and to consider other people perspectives for the betterment of all. Once in the chat room I encouraged you to write something telling what it was about trad climbing that inspired you rather than taking the low road of insult. Sadly you chose not to do this.

 

PP bigdrink.gif

 

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Come on Peter...leave him alone...

 

He's out training for a sub 4:00 mile!

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erik said:

Greg_W said:

I'm doing penance beforehand, by hopefully pulling a bunch of bolts at a hidden, once-secret crag I found.

 

hahaha.gif

 

CAREFUL GREG, I HEARD THAT OLD GUY CAN GET VIOLENT WHEN CONFRONTED. YOU KNOW OUT IN THE BACKWOODS ANYTHING GOES.

 

AND THOSE BOLTS MIGHT BE HOLDING THE CHOSS TOGETHER!

 

 

I think as long as I keep him in beers and tequila he'll stay mellow. Bolts are in solid, pristine granite.

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Stefan said:

 

In the old days of mountaineering, no one had route information. Now we do. I guess if it weren't for the Beckey books I wouldn't be climbing. Beckey books are like the bolts....

 

Agreed. No guidebook, greater commitment and sense of adventure. Same with bolts.

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mattp said:

Just don't let him get near your guns....

 

Out of respect for my partner's opinions, this will be a gun-free trip. I'm bringing the big maglight, though. wink.gif

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Greg_W said:

mattp said:

Just don't let him get near your guns....

 

Out of respect for my partner's opinions, this will be a gun-free trip. I'm bringing the big maglight, though. wink.gif

 

and obviously a crowbar or two???

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RuMR said:

Greg_W said:

mattp said:

Just don't let him get near your guns....

 

Out of respect for my partner's opinions, this will be a gun-free trip. I'm bringing the big maglight, though. wink.gif

 

and obviously a crowbar or two???

 

But of course. grin.gif

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Gee whiz! Aren't I popular!

 

MattP say: "What do you have to say to my post, Dwayner? As I said, you have some good points to make about the proliferation of bolts and the dumbing down of climbing, but don't you recognize that few are going to listen to you while you preach from your pulpit about your complete contempt for the climbs and the climbing areas that probably 90% of today's climbers enjoy so much - and for the climbers themselves?"

 

Dwayner: I've got my own style. You're entitled to your own opinion regarding its effectiveness. People can choose to agree, disagree; like me, dislike me. I'll make my points in my own way.

 

MattP say: "Don't you think it is a little absurd to proclaim, as you have so many times, that you too could climb 5.13 if you were willing to hangdog like those cowardly chumps that call themselves climbers these days?"

 

Dwayner: My original comment was made "in theory" using the example of Richard Simmons and his grandma. You could change the numbers and such and my point would remain the same. Could I myself climb a 5.13 by such methods. I think so. And so could you. I am sure it would take me a long, long time of rehearsing, dangling and swinging but I don't think it's an unreasonable "accomplishment". As I've said previously, I'm more impressed by someone who can walk up to a 5.7, climb it nicely, and leave with little or no trace. Am I willing to attempt to dangle and swing for weeks to prove a point to a few mostly anonymous people on an internet forum? Practically speaking....nope.....neither got the time nor the interest. P.S....I never used the word "coward".

 

ERIK....YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE ETHICS OF PUBLICLY SPREADING RUMORS, IN THIS CASE, A FALSE AND NEGATIVE ONE.

YOUR HYPOCRISY POINT IS WEAK...IF SUCH WAS THE CASE, ONLY VIRGINS COULD PREACH ABSTINENCE AND ONLY NON-SMOKERS COULD ADVOCATE ANTI-SMOKING. IT THEN BECOMES A PARADOX WHEN PEOPLE SAY, "DON'T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU'VE TRIED IT", BUT AFTER YOU'VE TRIED IT, YOU ARE GUILTY AND "NO LONGER QUALIFIED TO HAVE AN OPINION".

YES...I HAVE TRIED SPORT-CLIMBING. I DON'T CARE FOR IT....MADE ME FEEL KIND OF DIRTY.

 

Petey, Petey, Petey!

 

Petey say: “What has your discourse added to the debate?”

 

Dwayner: It has been provocative and informative as several people have told me. I should ask you the same question as you seem to be nearly as wordy.

 

Petey say:“...it did give you an opportunity to insult large classes of people and specific individuals such as myself.”

 

Dwayner: If "large classes of people" are insulted because I don't care for sport-climbing and have strong opinions regarding it...so be it. I don't care for snowmobiling either....there....I insulted another "large class of people." Same goes for the Taliban. As for personal insults....I'm not going to get into a bitch-fight with you over who got personal first.

 

Petey say: "The great revelation you have is:

Sport climbing by its nature is bolt-dependent. Some of us think that bolts should at best be used sparingly if at all.

I suggest you simply post those two sentences whenever you feel the need to enter the debate."

 

Dwayner: Great idea! It can be the opening for your New Rock Climbing Forum!

 

Petey say: "The difficult part of the debate is in getting people to work together and to consider other people perspectives for the betterment of all. Once in the chat room I encouraged you to write something telling what it was about trad climbing that inspired you rather than taking the low road of insult. Sadly you chose not to do this."

 

Dwayner: I don't recall the conversation but I don't doubt that you made such a suggestion. Happily, I am true to myself.

 

If there is any conclusion to be drawn from these recent exchanges, it is that Dwayner and Petey do not debate well with each other. Time to hose down the barking dogs before it gets too ugly as it has in the past. So Petey....if we're ever both in the same bar at the same time, and someone on the opposite side of the room sends you a beer and then holds up their own and winks.....it ain't me, it's some stranger at the next table. But I'll have one now... bigdrink.gif..Here...I'll even get one for you... bigdrink.gif if you pay me back later.

 

- Dwayner

 

 

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DEWYANER

 

LIKE I SAID, WAS ASKING A QUESTION. I THOUGHT I WOULD ASK AT THE SOURCE. SO SINCE YOU HAVE DISPELLED SAID RUMOR, I GUESS IT CREATES A NON-ISSUE. THAT IS UNLESS YOU FEEL GUILTY AND FEEL THE NEED TO CONTINUE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT MY QUESTION.

 

 

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Back at a Pub Club in Tacoma I remember a discussion MattP, Dwayner and I had regarding bolts.

 

Now I'm pretty much a trad climber, but when I listen to Dwayner talk about bolts it's very obvious he is totally unwilling to even think about other points of view regarding bolting.

 

My advice to more reasonable folks out there is to ignore both Dwayner and Pope. They are both dinosaurs and they will turn to oil soon.

 

And Dwayner if you really want to do something for the environment vote against GW next election.

 

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Since I don't bolt, I am just wondering--becuase I am ignorant on this issue.

 

On AVERAGE or a RANGE, (yes it depends on the line), how much does it cost ($$) to bolt 150 feet of rock properly?

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Stefan -

 

It costs real money to bolt "properly." Stainless steel bolts cost about $2.00 each (or more), powder coated hangers about the same, and proper chains and stuff for belay stations end up costing at least $10.00 per station. That is one of the reasons why you see some funky stuff out there.

 

As to the cost for a given 150 feet of rock, the total would depend on whether that is one pitch or two (some people are advocating 85 foot pitches these days) and how many bolts would be installed. It would cost $22.00 for a 150 foot pitch with three bolts and one belay station, whereas it would cost $120.00 for two 75 foot pitches with body-length bolt intervals and two belay stations.

 

In addition to the installed hardware, a power drill costs $500.00 and the batteries don't last forever. A $6.00 drill bit is generally shot after something in the range of a dozen holes but it can be resharpened to some degree at least.

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