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jkrueger

Flagstone -- Hydrotube Retrobolt

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Cracked,

I very much agree it’s not so simple. We all have our limits and I think the question is at what level do we stop catering to beginning climbers and climbers with hyper fearful attitudes about leading. Some climbers believe there should be no catering and some a lot. Our beginner routes there are as far as I would ever want to go and as I said earlier, we have no intention of putting in any more of them. They are a small number of routes (6 out of about 65+ routes at Flagstone) and I hear no one asking for more of them. I also hear no overweight drunks or toddlers asking for closer bolted routes either. It really isn’t an issue and if it ever became a issue, I’m sure you would hear a huge uproar from most of the climbing community to stop it. With these beginner routes, the climbing community is clearly divided over them. There are a lot of climbers who like them and a lot who dislike them and some who hate and despise them. They do have the support of a significant portion of the climbing community. This board caters more to traditional climbing and mountaineering so it isn’t a true cross-representation of the entire climbing community. If you were to quarry the crag, drill buckets up every route etc., you would get virtually no support from anyone and would get a huge amount of flack and resistance from almost all climbers. There is a big difference here between these routes and your hypothetical situations.

 

wdietch,

 

You’re very right, it’s the protection we GET. I was playing off of eriks use of the word “want”.

 

I’m going to leave the board for the rest of the day but I’ll be back this evening. I have a couple of trad projects I want to get clean and done and it sure beats responding to replys on this board all day.

 

Dave

 

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davetvedt said:I have a couple of trad projects I want to get clean and done and it sure beats responding to replys on this board all day.

what, this isn't fun? hahaha.gif

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Anyone got a guide for this place? I'd like to head down there and see what this is all about. The one time I climbed at flagstone there where only a dozen or so routes. I don't remember it being big enough for much more than a pitch and a half but my memory is a bit hazy. I would love to see how it has changed.

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I've got a guide that was published pre-2000 and is sort of a basic overview now. I picked it up at mckenzie outfitters in Eugene around that time. Doesn't really cover any of this newer stuff as far as I can tell.

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I have seen the work of Dave at a few places, and it has consisted of overbolted face climbs as well as bolted cracks. He clearly is not able to distinguish where to place bolts, and where not to. He needs to get out of Oregon and go to some other climbing areas, to get a better handle on new-routing. Only then will he understand what everyone is complaining about.

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I don't know anything about the area under discussion, so I'll refrain from making comments about these particular routes.

 

What I will say is that I really don't think that a closely bolted route here and there at established sport areas is going to destroy the last vestiges of the old school ethic any more than someone putting up death routes at such areas is going to turn everyone into a hardman that won't touch anything without an R or an X rating.

 

I do think that they should be relatively rare, and should not be the result of retrobolting an established line, or put up in an area with a contrary ethic, but as long as these criteria are met a soft route or two for first time leaders, kids, or whoever else might find them appealing at any given moment (mea culpa) shouldn't cause anyone too much grief.

 

I have heard from people in the know that Tex leads scary stuff all of the time and has some credibility in this matter, but when I read these discussions I wonder how often many of the people that sing the praises of dangerous routes from behind the computer actually get out and lead them on a regular basis. I know that for me, claiming I want to lead something and actually getting out and doing it are two very different things....

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not even Gumbies like myself want to be able to clip 3 routes from one stance. It makes route finding dificult for us blondes wink.gif

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JayB said:

I don't know anything about the area under discussion, so I'll refrain from making comments about these particular routes.

 

What I will say is that I really don't think that a closely bolted route here and there at established sport areas is going to destroy the last vestiges of the old school ethic any more than someone putting up death routes at such areas is going to turn everyone into a hardman that won't touch anything without an R or an X rating.

 

I do think that they should be relatively rare, and should not be the result of retrobolting an established line, or put up in an area with a contrary ethic, but as long as these criteria are met a soft route or two for first time leaders, kids, or whoever else might find them appealing at any given moment (mea culpa) shouldn't cause anyone too much grief.

 

I have heard from people in the know that Tex leads scary stuff all of the time and has some credibility in this matter, but when I read these discussions I wonder how often many of the people that sing the praises of dangerous routes from behind the computer actually get out and lead them on a regular basis. I know that for me, claiming I want to lead something and actually getting out and doing it are two very different things....

 

Your point is well taken, but the routes in question span a very large portion of this crag. It's not a matter of one or two routes. The line between safe and overbolted was crossed. Nobody is advocating creating dangerous sport routes. Nearly all the routes on the lower slab would be very safe and considered well bolted with 1/3 of the current number of bolts. Nobody is singing the praises of dangerous routes.

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No one has even brought up the Callahans area, which, from my perspective has been overbolted and and overgraded. Pretty amazing when you can Z-clip up a route multiple times on a 5.11 that anywhere else is a 5.10 or 5.9. The Callahans does have a lot to offer and there is a lot of community and climber support down there, but I go there with the knowledge that this is what I will find and can choose to skip bolts when I want to. Not a put down to the Callahans, just an observation. The routes are way overbolted and ratings are inflated, whether the grade was based off an onsight or not. My two cents.

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Yes,

Quite a number of climbers think we overbolt our routes. Quite a number of climbers also like our closer bolted routes and strongly dislike and even despise some of the more widely spaced routes. Many have told us just this. Our position is that there is a place for a wide range of bolt spacing on sport/bolted routes. Clearly the climbing community is divided over this issue. We support climbers having the wide range choice of climbing on anything from closer bolting to runout routes to death routes. We’ve heard from a number of people that they think climbs that they don’t think are safely bolted to be a “waste” of a good route because hardly anyone climbs them. Others think that a closely bolted route can be a “waste” of an otherwise good climb and that it has been ruined by too many bolts. There is a huge range of opinion in the climbing community about this.

 

A number of you speak of safely bolted routes and overbolting as if your version of these concepts have an objective basis. If even the ones of you that have used the term “overbolted” in this thread were to get together and try to objectively define what you mean, you would run into disagreements with each other. To a purist soloist, they could consider any bolts too many. Whatever spacing of bolts you say is the “correct” spacing and thus not “overbolted” someone else is out there who could laugh at you and your “need” for that many bolts. In my view, the term and concept of “overbolting” is clearly an opinion of the person. You may feel strongly about the subject and feel it is objective but that doesn’t make it so. I challenge any of you who disagree with this to come up with an objective foundation for your using of this term as if it were an absolute. It reminds me of an article I read a while back in Scientific American that interviewed prominent Quantum physicists. The interviewer discovered that these scientists had a wide range of differing/conflicting definitions of a couple of key concepts in their field and they didn’t even realize it themselves.

 

Climber’s views of what constitutes a “safely bolted” route varies a lot also and again is based in opinion in my view. There are objective factors we can refer to regarding the route’s safety (such as “no ledges to hit into”), but these don’t address a whole range of subjective factors that we all can have different views on. For example: What degree of injury is one willing to take on a route and still call it safe? For some it could go as far as taking quite extensive and serious injuries and they could view the protection as “good enough”. On the other end of the spectrum, some climbers may whine about a scraped knee and think that there was something wrong or unsafe about the route or with climbing because they got scraped. Most climbers don’t fit either end of the spectrum but there is a wide variance in our views of what injuries we’re willing to risk and/or take. Another aspect of safety that often isn’t recognized is that beginning climbers are more likely to get injured in falls because they have little or no experience in safely falling. What could be a no big deal few scrapes fall to you or me can be turned into much more serious for a beginning climber. These and other variables I think make it impossible to come up with any agreed upon “safely bolted route” definition. I think it is our personal values and opinions that define this term for each of us and how we view it for other climbers climbing the route.

 

Sphinx,

if you look at the top-down map on page 274 of Greg Orton’s guide, a rough guestimate can be made about how much the beginner slab take up of the linear climbing area of Flag. I measured it takes up about 1 inch and the total at Flag is 9 inches: thus 1/9th of Flagstone. And again, 6 out of 65+ routes at Flag.

 

Muffy,

I challenge you to tell me where on any of those routes you can clip 3 of them from one stance. This stance doesn’t exist. The top anchors of 3 of them are close together but that is because of the layout of the rock. These routes are as well spaced from each other as many of the routes at Flag.

 

Ryland,

You grossly over-generalize about the Callahan’s. Only one area of the Callahan’s has more closely-bolted routes. We intended this. You must not have climbed much of any where else down there. Our routes at other areas there have more widely spaced bolting. Yes, most routes at our main area are overrated in Greg’s guide. It was an unfortunate mistake based on some misunderstandings and rating them also when they were dirty. We have posted updated ratings based on Smith as a baseline but if you’re just wanting to gripe or bash rather than give constructive feedback (which we’ve asked for) then so be it. As far as Z-clipping on routes there, most routes there have a low to no risk of this. The “5.11” which you state could be a 5.10 or 5.9- Which one? Since you’re making the claim, substantiate it.

 

Well I have to get to work.

Dave

 

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DAVE

 

ONE THING I SEE FLAWED IN YOUR JUSTIFICATION OF OVER BOLTING THESE ROUTES, IS THAT I WOULD THINK THAT YOU ARE JUST ASKING BEGINNER, PEOPLE WITH LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SPORT. PEOPLE WHOM FEAR IS THE LARGEST PORTION OF THEIR CLIMBING.

 

SEEMS TO BE MORE VOCAL DETRACTORS THEN SUPPORTERS HERE.

 

WHO IS YOUR CONSENSOUS??

 

 

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Dave, I was not putting you down or your work. You have done some amazing things around this area and I thank you for your hard work, volunteer time, and committment to maintain good relations with land managers at places like the Callahans. I am just making an observation from climbing in areas like Mind Planet. I have not been down to the Callahans since the ratings were changed (at least not knowingly) and was only going off the ratings in Orton's book that was published back in 2001. I am referring to the climbs Eclectic Classic, Mind Games, and Backwards Evolution. Rated at 5.10a-5.11a, I still feel these are over rated and should be down graded a few letters. Ratings are all personal however, and since you put up the routes, it is your choice as to its grade. I have not climbed in most of the areas at the Callahans, and hope to get on a bunch more areas down there this summer. Keep up the hard work, take these posts as voices who can provide direction and insight into a part of the climbing community and what we would like to see. If I see you down there, I'll introduce myself and can discuss more on the topic. Again, never intended to sound like I was attacking you, and keep up the hard work. These opinions may cause you to think a little harder whether an extra bolt is justified or not. As for personal definitions of an overbolted line, if I can clip more than one bolt from any given stance, and there are no dangers below me (ie. a buldge or ledge) then the route is overbolted. Best of luck with your endeavors.

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What's the point of putting up routes so close together that the experience of one climb is virtually indistinguishable from the next? Jamming routes together, simply for the sake of putting up routes, makes it difficult to even find a particular route. And when routes start to share holds, it just reaches the point of being ridiculous!

 

This mentality lacks an aesthetic appeal, shows a lack of vision, and favors quantity over quality. Personally, I would rather climb one exceptional line that makes the most of what the rock has to offer than three mediocre lines that are just kinda there.

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wow dave, your a little long winded...

I don't think that any of us are realy attacking you personaly, just a diferent voice from the climbing comnunity that you havent herd before, or just havent payed much attention to... shit, I'm not out there puttin up routes, but I also take my hole rack with me where ever i go climbing, wich is usally off the beaten path... as far a ratings go, shit, I ain't good enough to climb 5.11's, not more than one pitch anyways... I pretty much agree with what ryland has to say, so live and let live, everyone in this world has to just deal with what is...

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I have a comment about Flagstone and another about Backwards Evolution at Mind Planet, Callahans.

 

At flagstone, when you first come around the corner to the North Slab, there is a route with super shiney hanger that goes straight up a completely unfeatured low angle(30 degrees) slab. I agree some enjoyment can be had on the other routes on this slab. In fact some of the others have upper sections(once you clear the "steepest" section in the middle of the slab) that are very similar, but marginally steeper. Why bother with this first route, when a similar experience can already be had on a route 20 feet away. I know someone who went up there hiking and walked to the 5th bolt in light hiking boots. I think that states the point better than any other works could. I really enjoyed hydrotube however. For anyone who is worried it may have been ruined, to me it was a definite mental "skills test."

 

Now for Backwards Evolution. I was down there about a month ago and in 3 lead attempts between 2 people, the rope got jammed between the rock and the draw in the 4th to last bolt(at the bottom of the block you stand on right before you get to the anchors). Anyway, as I was trying to mantle onto the top of that block (hips just at mantle height) the rope jammed shocked.gif This is a strenuous place to hold yourself at and still try to get some slack to move up. Anyway I propose that bolt at the bottom of the block either be pulled or on the climb sw oregon website, a note could be made that you ignore that bolt as there is another just 2 moves further up, or a long runner should be used there. I thought it was a fluke when it happed to my partner(luckily he had already stood up after the mantle when it happened to him) but when it happened to me too, I thought "its not just us, that's a poorly placed bolt frown.gif" Too bad, because I really liked that climb even if it wasn't really an 11b. grin.gif When it happened to my partner he thought I was SHORTROPING him. I bet nobody thought about badly placed bolts being a source of animosity between leader and belayer. Oh, the humanity! wink.gif

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Although I was exagerating a bit for effect with the added squeeze job, (I don't know the name of the climb) something between Acne prblem and hydrotube. All three share the same anchor. It was un nesicary to put another line up in that spot, if some one were interested in the line, they could Top Rope it. Over bolting sucks. I am a chicken shit climber, But how am I suposed to get better if you put a bolt every three feet? What are you teaching me except to stay chicken shit. I think You lack vission. And I don't think you bolt with ane eye for a pleasing climb. I know you ahve been round this a million times with every one and their dog, and my oppinion means jack shit to you. Frankly, I don't care what you think of me either. But you keep saying that you do what you do for the masses of people who don't climb hard. Well I happen to be one of those people. I doubt I will ever climb 5.11. But you shouldn't dumb climbing down to my level. It gives me nothing to strive for. Shame on you.

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I used to climb at Flagstone in the early 90s. WTF has been going on up there? Sounds like this Tvedt dude and folks that developed Spring Mt. on the east side should get together and have a bolt orgy in the rubber room! Flag was one of the first places me and my crew really lead any slab routes and we were pretty new to climbing, but I don't remember anyone getting freaked on the spaced out bolts enough to say that there weren't any climbs that they could lead. I think all these climbers bitchen to you about needing climbs with more bolts is all in your head. You suck and that is a personal attack! I have heard and watched people like you destroy a lot of crags by over development, but the damage is done and the masses have come and now all we can do is lament you and your drill. As the infamous Doug Scott once said (paraphrased): those that penetrate the rock with such blatant disregard and disrespect, all that can be said is that they must make poor lovers!

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shapp said:As the infamous Doug Scott once said (paraphrased): those that penetrate the rock with such blatant disregard and disrespect, all that can be said is that they must make poor lovers!

yelrotflmao.gifyelrotflmao.gifyelrotflmao.gif

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Ryland,

I’ll take you at your word that your intent wasn’t bashing. I think it’s important to recognize though that if broad vague generalizations are made without specifics, it’s more likely to be, and/or be taken as “bashing” by many people. Thank you for your more specific feedback. I agree with you that Backward Evolution is “overbolted”. It’s the one climb at Inner World that whenever I look at it the thought comes into my mind, “there’s too many bolts on it (the lower part)”. I remember when I bolted it I was wanting to protect against the ledge just after the initial starting bulge. Once this is protected for though, the fall is clean as you point out and I got at least one too many bolts in there before the crux. I’ve thought about redoing the bolting on this route a number of times. Hopefully I can just remove one bolt and call it good rather than remove 2 and add one, etc. This route as is can be Z clipped like you said but it is far from the norm on Mind Planet or at Inner World and I don’t think generalizing from this route to all of the Callahan’s or for that matter Inner World is valid. Yes there is closer bolting overall at Inner World but Z clip possibilities are still quite limited here. I share your opinion that “As for personal definitions of an overbolted line, if I can clip more than one bolt from any given stance, and there are no dangers below me (ie. a buldge or ledge) then the route is overbolted.” and we have I think held to not doing this with virtually all of our bolting. Feel free anyone, to let us know if you think we failed in this on a specific climb and we’ll check it out and consider changing it.

 

To any climber on this board,

Dee and I welcome any constructive and specific feedback about any of our routes from all climbers. We also welcome any discussion of climbing issues, ethics, etc. that any climbers would like to have as long as it isn’t attacking and coming from a “climbernazi” attitude.

 

Beaver Joe,

We’ve led Backward Evolution numerous times and have also seen a number of other climbers lead it and have never had or seen or before heard about the rope jamming problem you describe. I’ll check it out further though when I evaluate reducing the number of bolts on the route. This bolt you refer to may be “badly placed” or not. One thing I think can helpful for climbers to keep in mind when they don’t like the placement of a particular bolt is that there are multiple factors why a bolt might have been placed in a less than ideal spot. Avoiding hollow sounding rock and trying to reduce rope drag can sometimes severely limit one’s options on where a bolt is placed. At any rate, I’ll try to recreate the scenario you described to better understand it.

 

As for the ratings at Inner World that are in Greg Orton’s guide, they were based in the misunderstanding that Greg really wanted “onsight” ratings rather than the usual “redpoint” ratings. Greg stated in his book that the ratings are based on “onsight” but it appears we were the only ones to take that more seriously and the result was that many of our ratings there look pretty foolishly overrated. Ryland and Beaver Joe, most climbers we’ve heard from have given Backward Evolution 10d or 11a. I seem to recall one or two people thought it as low as 10c. What would you give it? Your comments in your initial post Ryland made it sound like we have a 5.11 there that could be rated as low as 5.9 anywhere else. Were you suggesting that Backward could be a 5.9? If not, which route were you referring to?

 

As stated before, we have posted at Inner World updated (Smith rock as a baseline) ratings for the routes there. Any constructive feedback on THESE UPDATED RATINGS is appreciated.

 

Beaver Joe,

I’d guess the route you’re referring to at Flag is Toy Box. As was stated earlier, this route was retrobolted with the explicit permission of the first ascent team and we met there at Flagstone and talked over options about how to redo the route. Originally the first bolt was about 50’ up and you started by angling in from the side and weaving up and then back to reach the first bolt. This start could have been kept but the interest by the first ascent team and Dee and I was to make this fun route more accessible to more climbers. A joint decision was made to put a new direct start to the route along with going directly over the bulge rather than around and back of it. This added 2 more “hard” sections to the first pitch. Certainly not every one agrees with this decision but a lot of people are fine with it also. Yes, I’ve gone up to what used to be the first bolt in my hiking boots before too. Anyone who’s comfortable on friction slabs can do it, but it’d be very difficult to do the new direct line in hiking boots.

 

Erik,

Actually we’ve heard I think from a broad range of climbers ever since we put in the routes a couple years ago. Quite a number of the climbers who support them have been climbers for many years and have led a lot of runout routes in their life. The first ascent team of Toy Box is an example of climbers with this history and they also put in a number of runout routes. As I stated earlier, this board caters more to trad climbers and mountaineering and I wouldn’t view it as necessarily a good cross representation of the entire climbing community. As I’ve stated before, the climbing community is clearly divided over these issues and there is no CONSENSUS.

 

Muffy,

You clearly didn’t do your homework of reading all the prior entries before posting. In my first entry, I clarified that while some climbers are blaming us for the “squeeze job” between the Hydrotube and Acne Problem, we did NOT put it in. To repeat: Greg Orton put it in. “Shame on you” Muffy.

 

jkrueger,

You sound like perhaps you made the same mistake as Muffy in your last post. Just what routes are you talking about?

 

Billy,

Bill S. is that you? You talk some pretty brave strong slander being as you’re choosing to stay anonymous. Where’s your courage? Come out and identify yourself. Or are you too afraid while you talk brave about overbolting?

 

shapp,

I imagine you’re impressed with your personal attack and the “humor” of your last quote. It’s one you’ve made before and it’s old, easy and lame. I think there is a good likelihood of a lot of insecurity in such matters on the part of people who resort to this kind of attack.

 

Dave

 

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you caught me blush.gif I haven't read the whole thred. Yet still the over bolting started somewhere. And I believe that it started with you and your partner. I could be wrong. My point remains the same. OVER BOLTING SUCKS.

 

I have climbed at the north wall (where ever it is that toy box is) and seriously, I realy think it is a mess. The first time I was out there it was okay, but there have been more routes added since, and well it is yucky now frown.gif

 

DOOOOOOD 20 words or less, kay? I have a short attention span wink.gif

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hey with all these super detailed replies it's like davetvedt is dan - or something. the logic makes about as much sense. boxing_smiley.gif

 

maybe some avatars will chime in and say how much they like having bolts at knee and shoulder height while they clip over their head and then matt perkins will make a futile attempt to moderate the thread and it will go on for 30 pages!!! yellaf.gif

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Sorry Dave-

I'm not talking slander about your routes, the facts speak for themselves. When you can clip more than 1 bolt from a stance, then this constitutes overbolting. When there are bolts next to cracks, this constitutes a bolted crack.

 

I'm also sorry about the comment I made about you needing to leave the area to find to bring some depth to your new routing, but I really think it would help you. This is made not meaning to attack you, but to give you some food for thought.

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I was busy shutting up and climbing yesterday. For those of you who wish I’d stay shut up or at least use 20-word-or-less sound bites, you do have the choice to ignore all this. I personally don’t think brief, vague and general discussions/entries usually accomplish much of anything in terms of understanding but instead often just play in the world of emotions. WARNING: The following post has all sorts of boring and tedious details that you may not give a rats ass about but do relate to the issues of Billy’s statements and Dee and my credibility and the “credibility” of our view that there is a place in the broader climbing world for there to be a small proportion of all climbing routes having “closer bolting”.

 

Billy,

You still didn’t identify yourself and you make general vague slander that we bolt cracks. You call it fact. WE DO NOT BOLT CRACKS AND DO NOT SUPPORT CRACK LINES BEING BOLTED. At the risk of opening another entire ethical can of worms on this board, we are taking you on with this accusation and what you mean by it. First of all, why not identify yourself? What are you afraid of Billy? We are not afraid of you. We are also not afraid of our history and will openly discuss it. Your “facts” are wrong and if you are going to make accusations be specific: name routes and dates, etc. Yes, we bolted two entirely pro-able lines in our first year of putting in routes 9 years ago. They were at Smith (Northern Point) where the local conflicted ethics are such that a significant part of that climbing community has little or no problem with bolting cracks as long as they aren’t the old classics and many can even be positive towards it. Bill Soule brought up his concerns to us and “chopped” these 2 routes. We looked at the general issues with this and with the wider U.S. climber community views of opposition to bolting cracks and some of the local Smith views and we sided BACK THEN with being opposed to bolting any crack lines in the future and to not re-bolt these two cracks in spite of support to do so from some Smith locals. We view our bolting of these 2 lines as a mistake and we have never repeated it. You use the present tense, Billy, and this was a long time ago.

 

We still have one bolted line at Smith from back then that is entirely pro-able. It starts as an overhung off-width and back then I couldn’t get the protection available at the time to have any real safety of holding a fall. This route is at an obscure basalt cliff with no one else’s climbs around. I was supported by Smith locals to keep it bolted when I asked about making it a trad route when better protection became available. I have been told “no one will climb it” if I don’t keep the bolts. So far they are still there. We have one other climb at that crag that out of ~50, the last 10’ are on a crack. Yes, that is a crack segment we still have bolted. It is not accessible from below by a pro-able line. We also have one other line at Smith on the basalt which was chopped where the last ~10’ out of ~50’ were ~3’ to the right of a thin crack that was harder to climb than line we climbed to the right. We rebolted this route because we disagreed with the chopping of it and we still hold to this. The only other bolted “crack” segment we have ever done is ~15’ of a 100’ route where the pro-able segment is about 2/3rds up(Most of the potential placements are hollow sounding). This route is in the Callahans. Neither the Callahans or Smith basalt have any kind of tradition of going with mixed routes although some trad lines on the basalt have fixed pins that are slowly being replaced with single bolts. It is extremely common around the U.S. on sport routes at sport areas (such as Inner World at the Callahans or Smith), that small segments of pro-able terrain be bolted if the majority of the route has no natural protection. From what I have heard, there are a number of bolted cracks at Smith with some of these having been bolted in the last few years. We have not done any of these. I do have two trad lines I put in at Smith. I put in (cleaned and redpointed) Sidewinder, ~5.11a on Northern Point (just right of Jungle Fever) a number of years back. Other than bolt top anchors, it is entirely trad and the entire top segment is marginally protectable with a tricam or two in pockets. I could easily have justified a bolt there but I did not. I also put in a trad line on the tuft at Smith that I was encouraged by some Smith locals to just bolt. This line starts by veering off a sport line we put in and some of the potential placements on it are not reliable. We have a local crag near Oakridge where some local climbers who commonly put in runout routes bolted an entire crack line. This however was in super soft rock where pro simply wouldn’t hold. There are a lot of complexities to deciding about protection in these kinds of situations and there are a lot of conflicting views about placing fixed protection where natural pro is considered suspect. We do NOT however, EVER support bolting an entire line where there is a significant amount of natural pro available. We ourselves are interested in putting in more mixed lines in spite of a lot of sport climbers hating them and not being prepared by having pro along. We have climbed at Joshua Tree several times where mixed routes are very common. A lot of climbers hate the way a lot of routes are protected there.

 

Billy, you patronizingly and snidely infer about me and my background and it seems quite clear you want to simply discredit me and my view that there is a place in the broader climbing world for a small segment of climbs to have closer bolting. If you are the person who I think you are, you haven’t even been able to remember from one time to the next that I climb trad. If you can’t even remember something as simple as this (has happened several times), how can your impression of me have much of any accuracy? You like to stereotype me as a narrow provincial climber with little perspective or understanding of how climbing is around the country but you apparently haven’t a clue. If you want to continue in this pigeonholing vein with me, I’d be glad to take you on in a public debate about these issues, on this board or face to face. I have been climbing for 14 years and have also climbed trad for all but the first half year of that. I did 15+ years of 4th and low 5th class mountaineering and wilderness travel before this. I have climbed in Yosemite Valley, Tuolumne, Lovers Leap, Pinnacles, JTree, Owens, Buttermilk Boulders, City of Rocks, Big Cottonwood Canyon, Blodgett Canyon (Montana), Leavenworth area, and numerous Oregon crags and have done “technical” mountaineering in Oregon, Washington and Montana. Certainly not extensive but not provincial either. I have also read extensively about hundreds of different climbing areas and have read guidebooks to many, many areas around the country. My view of things obviously isn’t your view though, Billy, and it doesn’t need to be. If you do have “climber-nazi” attitudes about all this Billy, would you please have the courage to be directly out there with them and not hide behind vague terms and claims and broad generalizations. If you’d like to discuss the issue of “over bolting” further Billy, I’d be glad to talk with you in person about it, or, we could drag it out on this board. Almost all of the routes we put in at Flagstone last year had much wider spaced bolting. Have you been on Endless Sky or the top pitch of Swampland Express? They clearly don’t fit your generalizations. Neither does our new mixed line Northwind or many of our other routes.

 

We have had for a long time the clear intent of putting in a limited number of “closer bolted” routes in the area as an alternative to the greater number of more widely spaced bolted routes in our area. We are close to done with this goal and as I stated earlier, we are interested in now mostly sticking with more wider spaced bolting, mixed routes and trad. I am currently working on developing (cleaning) a number of trad routes in the Callahans and elsewhere and have plans for a lot more. These will include some scary, more poorly protected lines and also off-widths that not many people will be willing to lead. As I stated before, we support there being a wide range of types of climbing here in our area and elsewhere.

 

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