RichardKorry Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Does anyone have any information about the Forest Service considering allowing commercial guiding in the Enchantments and Stuart Range? I received some email from someone that had been hiking in the Enchantments a few weeks ago and had a ranger tell them that the FS was considering this option. It is assumed that some percentage of the limited permits would be assigned to these groups. I'm looking for more info to see if it is true and if its a done deal or if the FS is open for other opinions. Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 That would suck. It would mean that it would become that much harder to get a permit. It means those who pay get access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 i hope it doesnt guiding is an abuse of public land. guides are making profit off of public land, we the people should be compensated for it. NO GUIDING IN WASHINGTON STATE!!!!!!!!!! i am calling my congress people. fuck the forest service!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 What the fuck do we need commerical guiding in the stuarts for!? Any jackass that can't backpack up to the enchantments without the help of a paid guide has no business being there anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 its called the disnification of the public lands. soon you will be reuiqred to call a contracted service just to get a permit to get a permit, so that you can drive up the icicle!! and who ever cut the counter at the sc parking lot good job!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Allright, guys. Richard asks a question and none of you have any information to offer but we get "f*cK the Forest Service" and "commercial guides suck." I happen to think that guiding is a fine profession, and I don't understand why so many cc.com folks have an attitude about how others should not be able to learn how to climb in groups or should not be able to pay someone to teach them or I have a greater right to enter the Enchantments than a guide with his or her client, or whatever -- but the question here is: does anybody know anything about this issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 are you serious matt we don't want stuart to look like the tetons.. give me a break Erik and company are right. Guides are fine but the enchantments are delicate enuff already. fuk the Forest circus. anyone got some smartbombs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Yes, Szy, I am serious. The problem in the Tetons is not the fact that there are guides operating there, but the fact that they have such a large presence. Leavenworth Alpine Guides used to teach classes in Icicle Canyon and I could be wrong but I think they also took clients up Mount Stuart and to the Enchantments without any noticeable problem that I am aware of. I have friends who have guided clients up there, and I think they were probably more careful about their impact and more considerate of other users than a bunch of self-righteous independent climbers who think they own the place. Some folks want to hire guides, some folks want to work as guides. I see nothing wrong with that. I may sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, because I will admit that I fear the Leavenworth rangers might grant some concession more than their share of the available permits or give them some other preferential treatment, but I think guiding, in-and-of-itself, is an OK thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 it was a different world and era in the 70's when guides worked outa leav...I am not dissing guiding. The enchanments is fragile and doesn't need commercialism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 If they let guides in the Enhancements Will they let us hunt them? Open season! I would pay for a permit! Seriously - you would have to ask why a place that is already too popular, needs people brought in who would be theoretically unable to get in there on their own Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 It is assumed that some percentage of the limited permits would be assigned to these groups. It would mean that it would become that much harder to get a permit. you would have to ask why a place that is already too popular, needs people brought in who would be theoretically unable to get in there on their own It seems to me that X number of permits equals X number of people in the Enchantments. How they get there-individually or in a guided group-seems irrelevant from an impact perspective. I can see how guides (and therefore clients) getting preference over individuals for permits could be an issue, and one that probably will be if this idea flies. "money talks..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolanr Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Exactly, if it is assumed the guides get their permits without having to enter a lottery draw or whatever, it takes away permits from non-guided parties. Not appropriate in an area w/ already limited access like the Enchantments. They can have at the Stuart Range if they want, as long as they don't monopolize routes a la RMI at Camp Muir and the DC route on Rainier. I ran into several different guiding outfitters a couple years ago teaching basic mountaineering on the south side of Baker before their summit bid, I had no problem w/ them, chatted w/ them some, seemed like nice people. Their being there didn't prevent me from being there, which could become the case in the Enchantments. For some reason the Deforest Service in the Leavenworth area seems to be worse than just about anywhere else in Washington, based on the amount of complaints on this board and Larry the Tool going around harrassing anybody that looks like a climber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I would almost guarantee that if guides start actively operating in Enchantments you will see fixed gear sprouting up on routes like W ridge of Prussik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Dru said: I would almost guarantee that if guides start actively operating in Enchantments you will see fixed gear sprouting up on routes like W ridge of Prussik. i would bet so...they would equate that with putting a ladder over a schrund on the DC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 (edited) You can't go the FS and say "no commercialism." That argument will lose with the forest service. You'll get a better response from the FS if you argue: 1) that we'll lose access to accomodate extra commercial clients, and 2) guided clients may have a greater impact. Does the average commercial user hasve a greater impact than some other group? If guided right, you would think they would have as little if not less impact than your average person. Maybe someone has actually studied this. Bottom line, though if it happens, it will be about fairness in who gets the permits and whether the guides funk up the backcountry. Edited June 4, 2003 by Winter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 my beta shows: 30% guaranteed permits, with interested guide services lobbying for a greater % of the permits for camping in the enchantments in the future- that means, when you,JOE PUBLIC, applies for enchantment permits, are competing with 30% fewer spots available, because the "Guide Services" have got the permits tied up... sounds like a RFU, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 One thing you can count on: the USFS will do every thing it can to sell the commons back to the users on a per use basis. By selling to a concessionaire, they can process less transactions per $ collected. It is all about the money. Fuck the USFS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I'm having second thoughts about this issue too. I am in favor of guiding on the high profile mountains like Rainier, Hood, Baker, etc. But I don't understand why repeat clients don't eventually wean themselves from their guides. I mean, if you've been up Baker, Rainier, and taken rock climbing classes with a reputable service, why do you now need someone to take you in to do Olympus, Stuart, or Challenger? Perhaps it is time to go with a 1:1 guide/client ratio requirement in these more "wilderness like" areas??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganerd Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Ya know, I really don't see what the big deal with the permits in the Enchantments is. I probably should shut my trap to preserve my strategy but I've been able to get a permit without a reservation each of the last four summers (or falls). I just show up at the ranger station at 7:40 for the lottery. Only once were there more people than the alotted five permits would allow. We lost, but picked up a forgotten reserved permit when it expired at 9:00 AM. No this wouldn't work on a Friday or Saturday, but on weekdays, it's the shit. Also, about the shitty leavenworth rangers, I do have one positive story about them. Four years ago, my dad fell about 40 feet off one of the cliffs above Snow Lakes and seriously fucked himself up. Partly because of luck, and partly because of the heavy ranger presence in the Enchantments, a ranger walked by within 20 minutes of the fall, just as I had stopped most of the bleeding. She called for help and the forest circus put out a pretty impressive effort to get him out of there as fast as possible. As it turns out, when the helicopter airlifted him out, he was just going deeper into shock and probably would have died if we had been forced to stay there much longer, almost certainly if we had stayed the night. They actually sent up some rangers to help out and take the packs of myself (carrying all of mine and my dad's stuff) and the other people who helped out in the rescue (I was just 15 then and I guess they thought I was feeble or emotionally damaged or something. Whatever, it was nice). They also gave us Snapple at the trailhead and drove me to the hospital in Wenatchee and made sure that I got on the ambulence plane with my dad (It was about midnight by that time), which wasn't really necessary but was successful in showing that they cared. I know this post has been completely irrelevent and I'm probably against commercial guiding in the Stuart Range (I don't know all the facts), but I just get tired of everyone only seeing the bad side of the forest service, although what a large backside it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 well, meganerd, it makes the enchantments a third less accessible to the average citizen in favor of commercial access to publicly owned land- to a someone willing to pay almost $200 a day to"recreate"- it is absolutely reprehensible to have the publics' access to public property restricted in favor of for profit business access to same- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I have got around it by not getting a permit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 you need permits to go there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 (edited) "Leavenworth Alpine Guides used to teach classes in Icicle Canyon and I could be wrong but I think they also took clients up Mount Stuart and to the Enchantments without any noticeable problem that I am aware of." I was part of LAG and did in fact take folks into Stuart and the Enchantments as well as the Icicle in the late '70s and early '80s. Things are different now. Bottom line is too many people, too many climbers. There was no quota system in place then because there really wasn't a need to limit the access to the Enchantments. A need to limit the quality of the people that had access yes, but the damage that was done in the '70s was not over use but abuse. Later I spent a several years climbing at Vantage and never once saw a climber there I didn't introduce to the area. The place has been trashed by climbers once it became known. And not by the guys who first started climbing there...but by their never ending line of friends. Guides make an area more accessable in many ways. I would disagree that Stuart and the enchantments needs a guide concession. As much as I don't like the permit system, too many people in the area are the problem. If you want to lower the impact on the area a guide service is not the way to do it. Guide services are there to make money....I know for some that is hard to believe. The way you make money is by bringing in more clients. Take a look at the numbers on the cow path and RMI. Do you think that over use in the last 30 years hasn't effected the experience on DC or the West Butt? The USFS will defend and help the guide service in everyway they can to reach that economic goal, including giving short shrift to the general climbing community with permit allotments. You can still climb almost any were in the Leavenworth area mid week and not see anyone. Just as you could years ago on the weekends. Plug commercial programs into that mix more than they are now.....and there are commecercial operations working there now......and that too will end quickly. In the end you'll see commencial guide operations in the area. Simple reason, there is serious money to be made, if fits the multiple use definition of the USFS and my quess is most of you that have a strong opinion will still be saying "fuck the USFS" instead of doing something a little more useful. Edited June 4, 2003 by Dane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 i have a solution to our problem: canada yeah, it's been far too long since we had a good war w/ those pesky northern folks w/ all their maple syrup and fucking "eh"s...it shouldn't be a long war, not much longer than the persian gulf distraction at any rate...when it's done, herd 'em into special hockey based concentration camps to repay our debts by wearing skates and beating the shit out of one another on national television...now they're outta the back country and we get all that space to trash to our heart's content...if we want to preserve that quaint leavenworth feel we can rename everything to fit our faux-bavarian proclivities...might make the timber folks around here happy too whaddya say...who wants to start the canadian wmd-connection rumor going so we can get the docile, apathetic non-climbing masses behind our little plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 well said dane guides lead to more people and more people lead to more problems (period!) Meganerd- I was there that day sitin at lake vivian... hows your pops now? sounded pretty serious at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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