glassgowkiss Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Where is the logic? the area is an old quary, has a tunel drilled. busy railroad tracks run 100 ft from the part of the lower wall and there is a gun club every saturday! i remember 4 or 5 years ago greg did a great job cleaning and scraping around tunel vission area. a lot of people enjoyed climbing there for a while. i climbed a couple of routes there last summer and it sucked- blackberry bushes everywhere higher on the wall. Now someone wrote about dirt and moss as a part of the climbing experience. well maybe to YOU because i go to Index to train. besides the views on Mt Index the whole place has estethics of a run-down industrial park meets trailer trash haven. i don't think even land managers will care if you trim some shrub. do a good job, thanks K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 AK, It appears a big distinction is being made here between hacking a whole tree away and "pruning". It seems like pruning wouldn't/shouldn't bother anyone, whereas "timbeeeeeeer" could be more controversial. Are you really considering just pruning (that seems like it would be a lot more work than just felling the trees)? Â To make this very specific: with regards to that tree that you could basically use as an alternate start to Godzilla, are talking about making it into a stump, or just trimming it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I just like the shade that those trees offer... Â I supposed I wouldn't object to a pruning, but to see some big cut tree stumps there would be just dumb... Â kinda like the approach trail "variation"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 OK, here's a more refined, thought-out, response that should please Mattp... Â I'm all for totally hacking out vine maples, if I understand correctly which flora they are (basically overgrown bushes, slide alderlike). But the bigger, more grand, traditional type trees (single-trunk, tall, deciduous) I would be much more in favor of manicuring like one would do in one's yard, or just leaving alone. Â I don't think you could go wrong if you just treat it with respect like you would your yard. Index Lower Town Wall is already basically a public park. I don't see any harm in shaping it as such. Â Of course, it would be nice if the shapers a) actually know what they are doing (which AK certainly does), and b) has permission of authorities that might get cheezed off otherwise and retaliate somehow against climbers. Â I think the Upper Town Wall has a more wilderness feel and I'd say manage that more like you would someplace like Sno Pass (trail maintenance, but otherwise leave the flora alone). Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Â Lookout for these guys when tree-cutting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 ChucK - you are showing signs of serious bigotry here. Vine maples are highly valued trees in suburban landscaping - and probably more sought after than "traditional type trees" if you go to Woodinville or Mill Creek. Â I don't think it is a matter of "vine maple bad; fir or alder good" so much as it is a matter of whether there may be some plants that are causing problems or may even be potentially dangerous. There used to be blackberries along the base of the lower town wall. I know there were some native blackberries up on the wall, but I think the ones along the base may have been the invasive non-native Himalaya blackberry. Anyway, they are mostly gone now and I don't think anybody misses them. In a couple of places, there used to be some vine maples with dead branches pointing upward such that a climber could get impaled. They are gone and I bet not even Lambone wants those particular trees back. There was a broken tree, fairly large, lying right on one of the slab climbs on the upper part of the Lower Town Wall a couple of years ago. It was scary to climb near it and I'm pretty sure it is gone now -- good riddance. Â I agree that the lower town wall is a different place than the Upper Town Wall -- for many reasons -- and any resource management practices whether it be trail maintenance or bolt replacement or tree-pruning should be undertaken with that in mind, but the differences cut both ways: the upper wall is a more "natural" area and the climbs are somewhat more adventurous, so the crag arguably deserves more careful protection and preservation. However, if you cut down a tree near the upper wall - and do a clean job of it - few would notice; if you cut down an alder near the parking lot, lots of people will go wild. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 chucK said: To make this very specific: with regards to that tree that you could basically use as an alternate start to Godzilla, are talking about making it into a stump, or just trimming it? Â I was wondering the same thing. I use that tree at the base everytime I do that climb. It's great to stem off of until I can get my feet high enough on the rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klar404 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I'm preaching to the choir here but here goes. Have any of you ever climbed at Pearly gates? I'm guesssing that that lovely crag was a moss fest before the fire/logging. And every time I climb up at squishy I always enjoy the "home improvement" structures you encounter. The Canadian's don't seem to be shy of getting rid of an offending tree or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 klar404 said: And every time I climb up at squishy I always enjoy the "home improvement" structures you encounter. The Canadian's don't seem to be shy of getting rid of an offending tree or two. Â I love grabbing those rotting root balls at the crux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysticNacho Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 In my opinion, go for it. The lower wall isn't exactly a "wilderness experience" anyway, with the railroad, gun club there anyway. All this sounds like is crag maintenance, hats off to AlpineK for taking the initiative. Like Dru said, trees grow back. Â Who owns that land anyway? Â Â Trees are aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I climb at Index fairly regularly, and would love to see some of the growth selectively and thoughfully cut back. Â Kurt has the skillz. Â I guess the only thing I would suggest is open a dialog with whoever the land manager is for where you intend to work, and make sure they're ok with it. If they give the OK, I think some "management" would only serve to improve the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I agree with the idea of seeking permission from the landowner or land manager when it comes to significant alterations, but in the case of pruning some Vine Maples at Index, I think we can be pretty confident that the land manager won't care -- unless, afterwards, they are faced with a bunch of angry phone calls from climbers reacting to the pruning job. If that were to happen, it might be nice to have had the land manager previously say "go ahead" but their response to the situation would probably not be that different and they might even prefer not to have been involved in giving advance permission. Mr. K may be doing the most important thing by starting the discussion here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Once again Kurt - Let me know if you need any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregm Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Â you may cut the trees if you replace them with an appropriate shrubbery! Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Dru said: Kurt  After you cut down the trees Make a fucking huge green wet smoky bonfire And roast pig.   and toast some marshmallows with a blow torch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cman Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Go for it K. I am sure all the whiners would appreciate all that was done after the fact. Just one thing though, CARVE ALL THE STUMPS INTO BEARS. just think how that would beautify the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 cman said: Go for it K. I am sure all the whiners would appreciate all that was done after the fact. Just one thing though, CARVE ALL THE STUMPS INTO BEARS. just think how that would beautify the area. carve the stumps into pigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 3, 2003 Author Share Posted June 3, 2003 (edited) I just got back from a long day out in Woodenville killing trees at a mega-home so the dude who lives there can build a driveway to the backside of his house to park his boat. Â Talk about bullshit. Â What I'm talking about at Index is clearing the wall. There will be plenty of shade, and plenty of trees left. In some cases you can cut entire stems out of a tree while leaving the tree in place. In a couple cases the entire tree needs to go, but there will still be a lot of trees left. Â Other areas where I've thought of pruning/removing trees are Rattletale wall, and at the lower lump. Â The Lower Lump first inspired me with this idea. I remember climbing Beatle Bailey to Racer X about 10 to 15 years ago; last year we went to the Lower Lump and found the routes totally covered in moss and a large big leaf maple growing into Beatle Bailey. In this case you could prune back the tree without killing it. Â Anyway, I'm not talking about a major logging job. After all I would be doing this for free, and I loose motivation quick when I'm not being paid. Â The way I read this is Lambone and Sphinx are against this, and Michelle likes the aid the tree provides. Â Lambone is from Montana and thus clueless about the way things grow in Western Washington. Â Sphinx, I have a couple questions for you. What's the house you live in made out of, and when you shit do you use toilet paper, or do you stick your thumb up your ass? Edited June 3, 2003 by AlpineK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 rattle tale would be a good one...i trust ya commrade...letter rip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 3, 2003 Author Share Posted June 3, 2003 Also I ain't driving a truck and chipper out to Index. This would all be dice and scatter with the brush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 I kept meaning to jump on this thread but have been preoccupied today. Alpinek has the right idea for many reasons. If the trees and shrubs are not trimmed they will eventually have an incredibly adverse impact on the climbing. Those who can remember back to the late 70's can attest to how messed up things can be. Periodic trimming is needed to maintain the area. The Lower Wall use to receive regular maintenance but in the 90s most of those climbers who brought snips to the crags stopped climbing.  By the way anyone interested in spending a day cleaning (as in maintenance) some routes at Private Idaho/Lookout?  Darryl  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphinx Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 AlpineK said: Sphinx, I have a couple questions for you. What's the house you live in made out of, and when you shit do you use toilet paper, or do you stick your thumb up your ass? 1. Rammed earth and hay bales, and stucco, duh. 2. Bark chips, until the paper industry crashes, it'll always be around, and usually isn't used for much. I've tried papyrus, but it's too brittle, and the cost to the environment is too great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Schuldt Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 GO FOR IT!!!!! Afew at a time and no one will know or care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 AlpineK said: I just got back from a long day out in Woodenville killing trees at a mega-home so the dude who lives there can build a driveway to the backside of his house to park his boat. Â Talk about bullshit. Â Lambone is from Montana and thus clueless about the way things grow in Western Washington. I'm from Montana and I just bought a boat. I 'm missing your logic here. Maybe because you are from western Washington, you are wet behind the ears. Try focusing. The shotgun approach isn't working for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 3, 2003 Author Share Posted June 3, 2003 Are you cutting down 20 trees to park your boat behind your megahome in the suburbs? Â Lambone has other problems besides being from the land where, "Men are men and sheep are scared." ....he's not even a member of the KTK even though he came up with the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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