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carolyn

Backing off vs Pushing self

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Dru said:

Back off snaf.gif

Im gonna push the HCL.gif

 

 

the_finger.gif attituide yellaf.gif

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Dru said:

Dru said:

Back off snaf.gif

Im gonna push the HCL.gif

 

 

the_finger.gif attituide yellaf.gif

Quoting yourself.

 

Really.

 

Tisk, tisk.

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Thanks for all the well thought out responses (even your page top, dru! grin.gif)

 

I cant remember who posted what. So, Im going to throw out some random thoughts and references.

 

I think mitch had some excellent points regarding safety. However, I ditto what attitude says about beginners not knowing their limits and maybe not knowing what is and isnt safe.

 

I have been taught by some excellent folks, along with a lot of reading, practicing, etc. I know I have learned safe techniqes and placements. The question is, can I apply it once Im faced with the situation. Maybe its a lack of confidence in my knowledge/ability?! As AlpineK said, it takes experience (lots of climbing) to understand your limits.

 

This last weekend the importance of downclimbing was evident. I was taught to downclimb at every chance. I almost always do when toproping (ice and rock). I think I will do it even more now! When my partner told me if I got wigged out to set an anchor and have myself lowered, I thought, "shit, I would MUCH rather down climb". Bless my mentors for teaching me good habits.

 

I guess this is just something I have to sort out for myself. Trusting what I know. Weighing the risks. Deciding what I want to risk. Its definately been helpful to hear other folks talk about this mental game, though. Feel free to keep them coming!

 

Im going to do a little name dropping here (I know, shame on me), mainly because I am super excited. But tomorrow Scott Backes and I are going climbing together at a local crag. He is pretty insightful with this kind of stuff, so maybe I will throw it out there and see what he has to say. I will be happy to share what comes of the conversation.

 

Oh ya! And climbing is ALWAYS fun for me! Sometimes challenging, but always fun. grin.gif

 

cheers! bigdrink.gif

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Woo hoo!

 

Goin climbing with BACKES thumbs_up.gif

 

Ask him what gettin one-upped by Mahoney, Gadd and Semple on Howse felt like yellaf.gif

 

 

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carolyn said:

...about beginners not knowing their limits and maybe not knowing what is and isnt safe.

 

Over-protect. When you are not sure about what is and isn't safe you need to do what you can to make sure that your protection is good. Compensate with redundancy. Put in multiple pieces at any tricky spot. Do not run it out. Always think about what would happen if the last piece fails. And if the last two pieces fail will I still avoid a groundfall (ledgefall). It has always seemed the only sane way to do it until you gain enough experience to acquire real judgement. Even so, the most experienced will get fooled and step over the line once in a while. You just have to do everything that you can to stay alive while you accumulate experience. If Goran Kropp had put in three pieces of gear at the crux he would be alive and uninjured today.

 

...I have been taught by some excellent folks

... I was taught to downclimb at every chance

...Bless my mentors for teaching me good habits.

 

I agree 100%. You are fortunate to have such solid mentors. Probably the most neglected skill. And will go a long way toward keeping you alive. With practice it is much easier than climbing up. Much less strenuous. You never have to do a pull-up.

 

...Scott Backes and I are going climbing...

 

The only time I met Scott Backes was in February '96. It was bitter cold and he, Jay Smith and Steve Gerberding had beaten us to the start of Oh Le Tabernac. They were waiting for the sun to move on to the ice so that it would be less brittle. Backes and Smith soloed side by side and Gerberding followed. We climbed Tabernac while they went on to climb one of the nasties on the right side of the upper bowl.

 

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Climbing with Telemarker at Castle Rock, I chose to back off Damnation Crack and follow. I might have succeeded but I might have hurt myself. I'll never get the onsight, but that's the breaks. I'll lead it when I get a little more solid on liebacks.

 

I did finally lead the SF of Jello Tower, which I had backed off a couple years ago. In order to get the confidence to pull what to me seemed a hard crux, I put in a lot of gear.

 

I think Mitch's words could not be more true. He's dead on. Ensure your safety first and then go for it.

 

I reread a post from 2004 about a guy who was backing off from Winter Solstice and fell, seriously injuring himself. That thread degenerated into discussion about helmets. A valuable learning opportunity was lost thereby. The discussion should have centered on decision making.

 

The guy wanted to back off the route, but the first 20 feet doesn't really have any protection. It's easy going up, but downclimbing would be insecure for a relative beginner.

 

The question should have been "downclimb unprotected, or bail off of gear?". I know that when I was just starting out, I worried too much about leaving gear behind. Damn that should be the least of one's worries, compared to injury or death.

 

At a place like Castle Rock, you can always get someone to go up for your gear or you can rap down to get it.

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Climbing with Telemarker at Castle Rock, I chose to back off Damnation Crack and follow. I might have succeeded but I might have hurt myself. I'll never get the onsight, but that's the breaks. I'll lead it when I get a little more solid on liebacks.

 

Maybe you should lead it when you are more solid on CHIMNEYING? hahaha.gif

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I had no trouble with the chimney part. It starts with a layback. You would know this if you knew more than just what you read on cc.com.

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It starts with a BOULDER PROBLEM of a layback... you can switch to chimneying after 15 feet. Maybe you should get back on it when you're more solid on bouldering?

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What you are saying is that it is impossible to break an ankle on a 15 foot boulder problem when the landing on a pile of rocks. Okay, whatever, Dru.

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Maybe you should bolt it then! Seems like you are using safety concerns as an excuse for non-performance instead of looking at the root cause of your failure, which is mental.

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Thirty two years of climbing and I almost punked out on an trad lead Saturday after one fall and then only managed to [finally] get my sh#t together on the second go because I got further and the fall was going to be an around the corner whipper, so to some extent you could say I only came up with the goods to pull the crux because I punked on taking the fall...

 

This sort of thing is always with us in an ebb and flow over the years.

 

- Down climbing is always good, but seldom taught or practiced.

- Knowing when not to fall will take time.

- Overprotecting (within reason) until then is good.

- Risks are unavoidable, in fact the whole point, entertaining them intelligently is the key.

- Second as many strong leaders as possible.

- No matter how long you climb or how good you get, always try to climb with at least some climbers who are better than you are.

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It starts with a BOULDER PROBLEM of a layback... you can switch to chimneying after 15 feet. Maybe you should get back on it when you're more solid on bouldering?

 

Oh really now? That's a long-ass 15 feet.

5164Damnation_1S.jpg

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Thanks for all the well thought out responses (even your page top, dru! grin.gif)

 

I cant remember who posted what. So, Im going to throw out some random thoughts and references.

 

I think mitch had some excellent points regarding safety. However, I ditto what attitude says about beginners not knowing their limits and maybe not knowing what is and isnt safe.

 

I have been taught by some excellent folks, along with a lot of reading, practicing, etc. I know I have learned safe techniqes and placements. The question is, can I apply it once Im faced with the situation. Maybe its a lack of confidence in my knowledge/ability?! As AlpineK said, it takes experience (lots of climbing) to understand your limits.

 

This last weekend the importance of downclimbing was evident. I was taught to downclimb at every chance. I almost always do when toproping (ice and rock). I think I will do it even more now! When my partner told me if I got wigged out to set an anchor and have myself lowered, I thought, "shit, I would MUCH rather down climb". Bless my mentors for teaching me good habits.

 

I guess this is just something I have to sort out for myself. Trusting what I know. Weighing the risks. Deciding what I want to risk. Its definately been helpful to hear other folks talk about this mental game, though. Feel free to keep them coming!

 

Im going to do a little name dropping here (I know, shame on me), mainly because I am super excited. But tomorrow Scott Backes and I are going climbing together at a local crag. He is pretty insightful with this kind of stuff, so maybe I will throw it out there and see what he has to say. I will be happy to share what comes of the conversation.

 

Oh ya! And climbing is ALWAYS fun for me! Sometimes challenging, but always fun. grin.gif

 

cheers! bigdrink.gif

 

 

I was going to reply, but was beaten to the punch, I was under JH as he was doing his (puking) move on sat. He did not even whimper one bit. Congrats.

 

my advise from someone who has climbed for 10 years.

 

Always try to lead EVERTHING. Its the only real climbing. toproping is fun when you have a lot of weed. but try to always lead. It will alway treat you the same.

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It starts with a BOULDER PROBLEM of a layback... you can switch to chimneying after 15 feet. Maybe you should get back on it when you're more solid on bouldering?

 

It's a lot longer than 15' of hard laybacks/jams/OW-ing etc before you can get to the no hands rest and begin to chimney. Bouldering wont teach you to place, save, or plan out protection when you are stressed and hanging by one arm or something.

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I started laybacking, had a foot slip, and fell on those stupid rocks when I first hopped on Damnation two years ago. Damnation! yellaf.gif

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You can start stemming right where the dude in the pic is. Who anyways is jamming and not laybacking - look at his feet. Laybacking is the "technique of no technique".

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