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kjohns

getting into passive pro

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How about that Pisces Crack on the Great Northern Slab. Now there is a place to place Hexes. Your newbie second will lose much skin removing those babies grin.gif.

 

Stoppers are bomber dood. You definitely want to learn how to place those. Cams are bomber too. You definitely want to learn how to place those. Hexes confused.gif. I don't see the utility in learning those if you're just going to abandon them once you get good anyway.

 

Buy a complete set of stoppers ('cept not the body weight size). Like Retro said, WC style are good. BD are pretty good, but don't get below like a #3. HB offsets are awesome, but might be a better as a supplement to a full range of another brand. So are DMM Wallnutz.

 

Start with just a couple cams, maybe a couple camalots between .5 and 2. That way you'll use 'em and learn, but you won't be able to completely ignore the stoppers. Camalots are a good choice for the beginner because they have the wider camming range.

 

Hmm...I think everybody said all this already. bigdrink.gif

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I'm with Erik (and many others on this one). While I agree that cams (not passive cams, hexes) are easy to place, they are not eaiser for a newbie to evaluate.

 

Learn to place nuts and passive cams (i.e. hexes and Tricams) first, then learn SLCs next.

 

If your passive gear is falling out when you get above it, as Aplinfox stated, you're USUALLY not placing the gear right. When you place it put a draw on it, and try like mad to pull it out (pull in the direction of fall). Watch how the nut moves , or doesn't move. Seeing it is very revealing. Obviously do this on a really easy route, or standing on the deck.

 

For a good starter alpine rack, I would get some nuts: BD, Wild Country, Smileys, etc., and then the large sized hexes.

 

Use 24 inch draws doubled or half-ed and have a handful of 48 inchers also.

 

Have fun and be safe...

 

bigdrink.gif

Edited by Rodchester

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p.s.

How did I take "the bible" out of context fence-sitter? I even quoted "somewhat less reliable" bit? That seems like a pretty honest and complete quotation to me.

 

because you said easier to place...but not easier to learn how to place...you used these statements interchangably...and yes...because no-one knows you...and no-one knows how much or what you climb....people will give certain vets that have paid their dues a bit more attention on the finer points of mountaineering than some stiffy reading outta the freedom of the hills.... rolleyes.gif

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My advice is to have an experienced climber follow your lead and give his or her unvarnished opinion of your placements. You might even have him leave the pieces in and pull them on rappel so you can see what he is talking about. You'll get comments like:

 

1) this nut doesn't have good contact

2) this nut wasn't set with a tug, it could have jiggled out

3) this cam is almost tipped out

4) you should have gone with the next size bigger hex

5) you should have put a long sling on this piece

etc...

 

The important thing is to get feedback on your placements. That's how you learn. You don't want to learn by falling, having the piece pull out and hurting yourself.

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and it's been said before a thousand times on this board, practice easy aid, ie make lots of placements and weight them. perhaps on top rope.

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wow, while i'm reading the thread CBS & b-rock made the two points that i was thinking about making. i think it's super valuable to have someone more experienced critique your placements. if you don't have experience, the best way to get it is to borrow someone else's! if you want more than a pitch or two of this, you'll probably have to buy the beer.

 

and of course, easy aid is great because you WEIGHT EVERY PLACEMENT, so you'll quickly see which placements suck.

 

i think tieton is a really good place to learn passive gear because the cracks have so many pockets and constrictions. just don't get spoiled - it's almost too easy there!

 

i like the BD stoppers because the wider profile makes them more stable when places sideways. in the smaller sizes, the bd steel nuts are awesome, and it's hard to beat HB offset brass nuts for thin cracks and pin scars.

 

tricams are bomber in the small sizes (pink and red) but are pretty heavy in the larger sizes, so i generally prefer hexes.

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I've changed my opinion. Go with an all-pins rack and bring the biggest hammer you can find. Or, just forget all this removable protection nonsense and get a bolt kit!

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rock v-threads all the way to the top. only way to fly.

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I went out to Royal Columns (Tieton) for the first time last week... awesome place. I found that I predominantly used hexes there. I also discovered the security of a well placed hand in crack AND that this roughly equates to a #1 Camalot.

 

I started building a rack and leading last year. Currently my rack consists of a set of BD stoppers, #5-10 Metolius Curved Hexes, one each of 0.5 - 2.0 Camalots, a small WC Friend (booty!), and enough biners to rack this gear. I also carry six sewn spectra runners tripled in quickdraw fashion, another six knotted runners carried in similar fashion, two tied double runners for slinging anchors and a cordalette.

 

When possible, I'll place passive pro. This is partially to get more practice, but I also feel more secure with passive pro (cuz my shizit's placed right tongue.gif)

 

The thing I'm battling now is getting good at knowing what to pull off my rack at first sight. I still fumble a bit with pulling one size too big/small sometimes, but I'm getting better. The other challenge I face is building solid belay anchor systems in a timely fashion. To address this, I'm going to try to get in as many moderate multi-pitch climbs as I can this summer. I figure that'll just come with time.

 

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fleblebleb said:

I've changed my opinion. Go with an all-pins rack and bring the biggest hammer you can find. Or, just forget all this removable protection nonsense and get a bolt kit!

Fleblebleb, you should get serious. This is Newbies, not Spray. There are people posting here who are being very helpful, but you are not. I can't remember the last time you made a post that wasn't cynical garbage. Surely you have something constructive to offer, at least once in a while.

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that post just had that scot'lesschwab feel to it. "I'm gone for a few days and look what happened here...etc.etc...." perhaps this was before you registered.

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Can't believe you traddos are so caught up in your tradness that you are anti-newbs-learning-to-place-cams. Just because cams are new-school (they're only what, about 30 years old?) doesn't mean they aren't useful as fuck. How many routes do you climb and you place no cams at all? It would seem that, as a perfectly useful piece of protection, the cam would be an excellent thing to learn to use, and certainly no more or less useful than a nut or a hex or whatever. This "no, must learn to use most primitive tools available" attitude is so damn self-limiting; it's amazing some of you clowns aren't still using machine nuts on hemp cord.

 

Learn to use all types of gear, and for goodness' sake, go sport climbing every once in a while and learn to have a good time and not take climbing so anal-retentive seriously that you find yourself unwilling to try something because it hasn't been around since 1950.

 

That was fun. yelrotflmao.gif

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btw I'm listening to Ice-T Power right now...haven't heard this album in over a decade. awesome this guy's a genius

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iain said:

ever try telemark

 

Yeah. Quad-burning nightmare, but it's actually pretty fun. You new-schoolers using two aluminum ski poles and composite skis with hard plastic boots and cable bindings are really crazy insane, though. You should learn the correct way of doing it first, with some Hemlock planks, rabbit skin bindings, and a large pole for directional changes and balance. Honestly, you kids and your disdain for tradition ... it's a wonder you can even get down the hill!

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Sure, DFA, cams are great, and as American as apple pie. But it's not a good idea to rely solely on cams and their seductive ways. Cams are so "easy" to place that you can forget to check the subtleties of the placements. A cam may seem solid in that backward-flaring crack -- you yard on it and it holds nicely. You make a few more moves, flip the rope around your leg, and all of a sudden your bomber #3 Friend has walked back into the crack. If you fall on it, it might hold, but it might explode and you'll hit that ledge. Oops. If you place a nut wrong, you can see it when you place it.

 

The reason cams weren't invented until later is because they're a more complex piece of technology. More complexity means more difficulty in evaluating whether the technology is working correctly. The KISS rule holds some truth.

 

Nuts are cheap, get them first before you decide whether you really like leading. You can always borrow cams from your more experienced friend, anyway (the one who's checking your placements for you as you practice). You won't need a whole rack until you're competent at leading.

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Cams, nuts, hexes, bla, bla, bla . . . Who cares what you learn to use first. Just make sure you learn to use them all.

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Well bugger me.

 

Guess where this quote is taken from:

 

"... The lightest rack would not include so many cams. We included the cams because we believe they are worth a little bit of added weight for most conditions. Cams fit a wider range and will usually fit in more places than nuts. Cams are usually faster easier to place and remove than nuts. Cams are also less likely to wiggle loose from rope friction than nuts. Anyone just starting to lead climb and place protection will want to learn about Cams right from the beginning."

 

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Dr_Flash_Amazing said:

Can't believe you traddos are so caught up in your tradness that you are anti-newbs-learning-to-place-cams. Just because cams are new-school (they're only what, about 30 years old?) doesn't mean they aren't useful as fuck. How many routes do you climb and you place no cams at all? It would seem that, as a perfectly useful piece of protection, the cam would be an excellent thing to learn to use, and certainly no more or less useful than a nut or a hex or whatever. This "no, must learn to use most primitive tools available" attitude is so damn self-limiting; it's amazing some of you clowns aren't still using machine nuts on hemp cord.

 

Learn to use all types of gear, and for goodness' sake, go sport climbing every once in a while and learn to have a good time and not take climbing so anal-retentive seriously that you find yourself unwilling to try something because it hasn't been around since 1950.

 

That was fun. yelrotflmao.gif

you stoopid paint guzzlin bastard...no-one on this entire thread has advocated nto using cams...they have only sai dthat newbies should start out with passive pro... now you can go back to gas huffing and drinking hairspray... hahaha.gif

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slothrop said:The reason cams weren't invented until later is because they're a more complex piece of technology. More complexity means more difficulty in evaluating whether the technology is working correctly. The KISS rule holds some truth.

 

Just because something is higher-tech doesn't mean it is less safe. Look at automobiles. It seems pretty obvious that some new Volvo with ABS/SRS/Chest belts is a lot safer than an old corvair (or whatever that car was that Nader got his panties in a bunch over).

 

In general though, I appreciate the KISS rule.

 

 

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Just because something is higher-tech doesn't mean it is less safe.

 

it does if you dont understand the principles involved and what the fuck you are doing... bla bla bla bla bla... go over to DFA's they are having a rubbing alcohol shot contest...i think you could win... Geek_em8.gif

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fleblebleb said:

Well bugger me.

 

Guess where this quote is taken from:

 

"... The lightest rack would not include so many cams. We included the cams because we believe they are worth a little bit of added weight for most conditions. Cams fit a wider range and will usually fit in more places than nuts. Cams are usually faster easier to place and remove than nuts. Cams are also less likely to wiggle loose from rope friction than nuts. Anyone just starting to lead climb and place protection will want to learn about Cams right from the beginning."

 

I know! I know! Somewhere where there are cams for sale!

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Gary_Yngve said:

fleblebleb said:

Well bugger me.

 

Guess where this quote is taken from:

 

"... The lightest rack would not include so many cams. We included the cams because we believe they are worth a little bit of added weight for most conditions. Cams fit a wider range and will usually fit in more places than nuts. Cams are usually faster easier to place and remove than nuts. Cams are also less likely to wiggle loose from rope friction than nuts. Anyone just starting to lead climb and place protection will want to learn about Cams right from the beginning."

 

I know! I know! Somewhere where there are cams for sale!

was that written by wild country or BD?

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