Fejas Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 (edited) Jim said: Yea, go with the small beef producers if you can find them. Internet is helpful. And the cows do screw up the habitat for deer, elk, fish, etc. Intermountain areas (west of Rockies) did not evolve with large herds of grazers so the plants are particularly susceptible to cow damage. Elk and deer are primarily browsers (think shrubs) not grazers (think grass) and they never approached the density of the buffalo on the plains. Ecologicaly a bad idea. Elk are not browsers... the were a plains animal before major civilization got here... their mouth and stomacs are very simalar to cows... they eat more grass than shrubs... thats why ranchers run them off their land... Cows don't do any more damage than elk do, but if there are a lot of them than its a big problem... I rarely eat beef, I mostly eat thsoe deer and elk... the pork, beef, chicken and such comes from small frams or ranches around eugene... Edited March 13, 2003 by Fejas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 Fejas said: Jim said: Yea, go with the small beef producers if you can find them. Internet is helpful. And the cows do screw up the habitat for deer, elk, fish, etc. Intermountain areas (west of Rockies) did not evolve with large herds of grazers so the plants are particularly susceptible to cow damage. Elk and deer are primarily browsers (think shrubs) not grazers (think grass) and they never approached the density of the buffalo on the plains. Ecologicaly a bad idea. Elk are not browsers... the were a plains animal before major civilization got here... their mouth and stomacs are very simalar to cows... they eat more grass than shrubs... thats why ranchers run them off their land... Cows don't do any more damage than elk do, but if there are a lot of them than its a big problem... I rarely eat beef, I mostly eat thsoe deer and elk... the pork, beef, chicken and such comes from small frams or ranches around eugene... Hey guys - Cows suck. The main environmental problems with grazing on public lands are: 1) water quality and aquatic habitat as a result of trampling and shitting in streams, and 2) invasive species. The economics are completely screwed up as the federal government subsidizes another extractive industry like mining and timber. We need them off the public lands. It one of the worst economic policies of DOI and it completely screws up thousands of miles of prime salmonid habitat. I also hate sleeping next to a bunch of cow shit in the Grasslands. Cows suck. cows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 13, 2003 Author Share Posted March 13, 2003 Yep. Anyway you read it generally cows is no good on public land. There are some ways you can graze them on land responsibly but it's not done on public land, takes too much input. Elk will browse and graze depending on where they are and what is available. Coast range - mostly browsers, plains - mostly grazers (true fejas), cascades - depending on season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 13, 2003 Share Posted March 13, 2003 elk = chronic wasting disease Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 14, 2003 Author Share Posted March 14, 2003 That's a weird thing. MT Fish and Game has put out guidlines on how to field dress elk so not to contract chronic wasting from the critters. yuk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 What is chronic wasting disease? Is that one of the prion diseases affecting the brain, like BSE? I went to a lecture given by an UW Botany student on plants that live in seasonal ponds in Eastern Washington. She counted the different plant species she found and compared their number between ponds that were affected by cattle and those that were not. As you might expect, there was much more species diversity in the ponds that were not trampled by cattle. Furthermore, there were fewer invasive species in the ponds that were fenced off from cattle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 wow, whodathunkit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 14, 2003 Author Share Posted March 14, 2003 I think the answer is yes - here's a site on chronic wasting, with one hurtin' elk picture. http://www.cwd-info.org/ Also for anyone intrested - one of the best comprehensive reviews of the scientific literature regarding grazing impacts: http://www.onda.org/library/papers/index.html Don't buy that crap about "grazing as a tool" on your public lands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 No one seems to know how prion diseases are spread amongst herbivors. The infectious agent is a protein which is very persistent in the environment. Apparently, the protein is shed in the feces and when ingested causes the infection. That can be the only explanation that make sense. I remember reading about a laboratory that dumped some prion containing media in a flower bed outside the lab. Some years later they sampled the soil and found that they could still infect animals with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 14, 2003 Author Share Posted March 14, 2003 Hadn't heard that, but can't say I dwell on wildlife infectious diseases either. This has been more enlightening than the French-fry bashing thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnGoat Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Someone mentioned grazing was permitted in the Ochacco range in oregon. What part of oregon is that in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 catbirdseat said: No one seems to know how prion diseases are spread amongst herbivors. The infectious agent is a protein which is very persistent in the environment. Apparently, the protein is shed in the feces and when ingested causes the infection. That can be the only explanation that make sense. I remember reading about a laboratory that dumped some prion containing media in a flower bed outside the lab. Some years later they sampled the soil and found that they could still infect animals with it! Or when you render infected sheep and add the fat to cow feed as a high protein supplement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 the Ochocos are east of Prineville, kindof eastern central Oregon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fejas Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 They are the renge that lies between prinville and John Day Oregon... there a very few places to climb in them, but the pine forrests are great... outstanding fishing there too... Twards the CWD... maybe they contract it from eating their own shit, but thats only because all the cows grazed off their food... bastages... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 14, 2003 Author Share Posted March 14, 2003 Just did some wildlife management planning/grazing plans for BLM/Reclamation out of Prineville and was there last week. Deer and elk move outta the Ochocos in winter down to the valleys including around Prineville reservoir. Nice juniper shrub areas, some volcanic tuff towers there but very brittle. Good golden eagle viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 PullinFool said: Jim said: take a read of "Fast Food Nation" and you'll never eat ground beef again. I just finished that book, and I still think organic beef slaughtered by the local butcher is fine. I will certainly never eat fast food again, but your point is a reactionary generalization at best. Besides, the author still likes In 'n Out Burger, or did you miss that at the end ? Just read the book too. I'd like to know where you can find a butcher who uses organic cows and does all the butchering himself. I thought they were extinct. I haven't see one since I was about 9 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 When I was younger and had some property, I raised a couple beef just for my own use. No chemicals or funky feed. The meat tasted so different from store-bought or restaurant beef it took me a couple weeks to get used to it. Much better though, I might add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fejas Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 ehmmic said: PullinFool said: Jim said: take a read of "Fast Food Nation" and you'll never eat ground beef again. I just finished that book, and I still think organic beef slaughtered by the local butcher is fine. I will certainly never eat fast food again, but your point is a reactionary generalization at best. Besides, the author still likes In 'n Out Burger, or did you miss that at the end ? Just read the book too. I'd like to know where you can find a butcher who uses organic cows and does all the butchering himself. I thought they were extinct. I haven't see one since I was about 9 years old. most of the small cattle ranches around here are organic... that is the cows aren't all pumped full of steriods and other such hormoans... and any of our butcher shops here in the eugene area do all of their own cutting, grinding, drying, smoking, raping, and what ever else they do there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Out in Montana, they call these cattle that wander off the Forest Service Property and onto private property "slow elk". Bang! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fejas Posted March 14, 2003 Share Posted March 14, 2003 Bronco said: Out in Montana, they call these cattle that wander off the Forest Service Property and onto private property "slow elk". Bang! Thats funny thats what we call them here in oregon too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PullinFool Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 ehmmic said: PullinFool said: Jim said: take a read of "Fast Food Nation" and you'll never eat ground beef again. I just finished that book, and I still think organic beef slaughtered by the local butcher is fine. I will certainly never eat fast food again, but your point is a reactionary generalization at best. Besides, the author still likes In 'n Out Burger, or did you miss that at the end ? Just read the book too. I'd like to know where you can find a butcher who uses organic cows and does all the butchering himself. I thought they were extinct. I haven't see one since I was about 9 years old. We have an organic beef and pig guy on Orcas island, he recently jumped thruogh all of the USDA hoops to have the first-ever USDA approved mobile slaughterhouse. We get half a pig and a quarter of beef from him a year. . If you are interested in contacting Bruce, pm me. Yeah, you're right Trask, it's much more gamey than grain-fed beef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle_Tricky Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Organic free range custom raised and butchered beef from Bill White in the Methow. Try his jerky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolanr Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 I think Ed Abbey coined that "slow elk" phrase quite a few years ago. He probably helped himself once or twice to some free range cattle he happened across in the desert southwest. Cattle ranching in much of the arid western U.S. always was and still is a bad idea. It takes way too much square mileage per cow to support them and they cause way too much environmental damage. I agree, get rid of the cows and bring back the bison. What's w/ that bullshit w/ paranoid Montana ranchers slaughtering Yellowstone bison the second they cross the state border during the winter because they allegedly might spread some kind of disease (brucilosis or something like that, not sure on the spelling) to cattle, even though there hasn't been a single documented case of this happening. They wiped out about a third of the herd one year several years back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Jim said: On your way to the peaks you may have to deal with more cow patties. I often work with these issues and this is another bad proposal by the Bushies. BLM, which admisters 262 million acres of federal land has announced new rules to "streamline" the grazing permit process. Currently grazing fees on federal lands bring in less than $6.5 milion per year while the costs of administrating the same grazing cost $63 million. The new rules would lower the fees for grazing on federal land from $1.43 per animal unit month (AUM) to $1.35. The costs of administering the grazing does not cover the cost of grazing to upland, wetland, and riparian habitats, aquatic systems, fish, etc. One of the bigger problems with the program is that the fees do not match market rates in the private sector, i.e. - a subsidy for ranchers, more environmental damage, and money out of your pocket to run the program. The proposed rules also would allow grazing permitees to hold title to portions of public (your) land and would significantly reduce the ability of the public to appeal decisions. The comment meeting schedule and proposed rule changes can be found at: www.blm.gov/nhp/news/regulatory/index.htm = lower food costs for America and the world. ...I know you think we should all be eatin' soy and tofu, and now you're going to spout some anecdote about x-number of acres of grain feeding y number of people versus cattle. Just remember; "public lands" means just that. Not your land, everybody's land. ....I will add that it is wrong to subsidize Canadian mining companies extracting ore from American public lands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 15, 2003 Share Posted March 15, 2003 Fairweather said: Jim said: On your way to the peaks you may have to deal with more cow patties. I often work with these issues and this is another bad proposal by the Bushies. BLM, which admisters 262 million acres of federal land has announced new rules to "streamline" the grazing permit process. Currently grazing fees on federal lands bring in less than $6.5 milion per year while the costs of administrating the same grazing cost $63 million. The new rules would lower the fees for grazing on federal land from $1.43 per animal unit month (AUM) to $1.35. The costs of administering the grazing does not cover the cost of grazing to upland, wetland, and riparian habitats, aquatic systems, fish, etc. One of the bigger problems with the program is that the fees do not match market rates in the private sector, i.e. - a subsidy for ranchers, more environmental damage, and money out of your pocket to run the program. The proposed rules also would allow grazing permitees to hold title to portions of public (your) land and would significantly reduce the ability of the public to appeal decisions. The comment meeting schedule and proposed rule changes can be found at: www.blm.gov/nhp/news/regulatory/index.htm = lower food costs for America and the world. ...I know you think we should all be eatin' soy and tofu, and now you're going to spout some anecdote about x-number of acres of grain feeding y number of people versus cattle. Just remember; "public lands" means just that. Not your land, everybody's land. ....I will add that it is wrong to subsidize Canadian mining companies extracting ore from American public lands. same law applies to everyone sunshine. Or are you against free trade when its inconvenient for you, and only for it when its for you? Altho' for all i know maybe youre an isolationist.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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