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bcollins

Index Town Wall TR

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Got up on the Upper Town Wall this last Sat. during the blizzard of 03! Drove up Friday night, crashed in the SUV and hauled the bags to the base of Green Draggon. My partner Rob was able to put up one long, stout pitch (A2) in snowstorm. Coldest 4 hr. belay of my life! Usually the top of the pitch ends in about 30-40 ft. of easy free climbing but Rob ended up digging through snow to frig in pins, offset Aliens and small nuts. Lowering off in the near dark, we hung the ledge off the static rope and crawled in, enduring a long, wet night. Snow turned to rain and in the morning we had lost all ambition to even clean the pitch, let alone push our route further.......drenched, tired, and having gotten our ass thoroughly kicked, we ditched our gear and drove home with plans to clean the pitch on Tuesday (today) Of course today was just as bad (although warmer). Jugging up in a downpour, I wondered why the hell we put ourselves through this misery! Shouldn't I have been snowboarding? Anyway the ledges had melted out, and an hour later we were pulling the ropes and packing out. The upper wall is a torrent, with spray and meltwater flooding out all but the largest roofs. Aid climbing in the rain is not too bad, I hardly noticed it because I was so absorbed in the dynamics of climbing. The belays are harsh though........

All in all quite the adventure. Still we'll give it another couple of months for the weather to improve.

 

 

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b,

 

I know this is obvious, but you really shouldn't hammer pins on that pitch, or any pitch of the GD for that matter. More important than that, you DEFINATELY shouldn't admit that you did on this web site! wave.gifwazzup.gif

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Sounds like a monday climber would have been excited to see that much'booty' gear grin.gif. Your crag plans turned into more of an alpine experience.

 

So the wall is totally drenched huh? I wonder if the surrounding hills it will be melted out by next weekend (causing less meltwater on route)? grin.gif

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i'm not going to say anything at this time. i will rage when i return. i need to hold my good vibe!!!

 

madgo_ron.gif

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I'm just gonna assume that since they were wallowin' through snow the pins were necessary. But since I don't really know shit about aid climbing, my opinion don't count for much.

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col

 

all out opinions are worth something...

 

thats why i am reserving my comments...

 

cuz i have a happy face!!

 

smile.gif

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bcollins said: My partner Rob was able to put up one long, stout pitch (A2) in snowstorm. Coldest 4 hr. belay of my life! Usually the top of the pitch ends in about 30-40 ft. of easy free climbing but Rob ended up digging through snow to frig in pins, offset Aliens and small nuts.

 

Thats friggin lame. rolleyes.gif Why did you bring pins on a totally clean route to begin with? I think it even says in the book. No pins. the_finger.gif

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Lambone said:

b,

 

I know this is obvious, but you really shouldn't hammer pins on that pitch, or any pitch of the GD for that matter. More important than that, you DEFINATELY shouldn't admit that you did on this web site! wave.gifwazzup.gif

 

No, it's not obvious. Mountaineering in different conditions requires different strategies. Mountain climbing on the lead is a serious experience. There's nothing artificial about it, and the reasonable measures you take to save your butt are completely ethical. Bolting on rappel with the intent of creating a future "lead"...now that is an abomination. It's ugly, cowardly and damaging, and it's completley unnecessary for your immediate safety.

 

A couple of pins pounded in a snow storm really bother you? But I doubt that when somebody adds a batch of chicken bolts for the complete free ascent, I doubt that's going to bother you.

 

Mr. Collins (think I met you at Spire Rock), pay not attention to the ridiculous attempts to discuss ethics on this board.

 

 

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this is why we should not let old climbers out anymore...

 

too old skool...

 

cant vibe with the clean thing.....

 

though maybe he hand placed them?? benefit of the doubt...

 

 

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pope said:

...pay not attention to the ridiculous attempts to discuss ethics on this board.

 

thumbs_up.gifyelrotflmao.gif

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erik said:

this is why we should not let old climbers out anymore...

 

too old skool...

 

cant vibe with the clean thing.....

 

though maybe he hand placed them?? benefit of the doubt...

 

 

POPE

 

PLEASE READ ABOVE COMMENT!

 

THANKS!

 

wave.gif

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No, it's not obvious. Mountaineering in different conditions requires different strategies. Mountain climbing on the lead is a serious experience. There's nothing artificial about it, and the reasonable measures you take to save your butt are completely ethical. Bolting on rappel with the intent of creating a future "lead"...now that is an abomination. It's ugly, cowardly and damaging, and it's completley unnecessary for your immediate safety.

 

A couple of pins pounded in a snow storm really bother you? But I doubt that when somebody adds a batch of chicken bolts for the complete free ascent, I doubt that's going to bother you.

 

 

 

 

Whats obvious is that Green Dragon is rock climbing not mountaineering. More specifically aid climbing. Thats a far cry from mountaineering. I guess if you call aid climbing at the UTW mountaineering then I can call clipping bolts at Smith alpine climbing.

 

Yes, a couple pins pounded in during a snowstorm are a bother. Especially on a clean trade route. Cause after a couple pins in a snowstorm its going to be a couple pins in the summer. After a while the route will be C1 downgraded from C2/C3.

 

The truth of the matter is that Pope is a hypocrite. Its ok to pound pins into a clean trade route thus damaging and defacing the rock but its a crime to bolt a blank face. I call bullshit.

 

In my humble opinion its not cool to bolt an aid climb so you can free it. Either you have the balls to free it in existing conditions or you don't. Same with clean aid and chicken bolts on nailing route. If you don't have what it takes to do it then be a big enough of a person to admit it.

 

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i bet he slammed em home with a sledge hammer

 

and the scars are big enough for #4 tri cams.

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Pope,

 

I agree with TimL, yes it does bother me that someone is pounding pins on the Green Dra-gon, especialy the first pitch, which is the easiest pitch on the route. It is a clean trade route, has been for a long time and should be respected as that, plus it has been free climbed!

 

Second, no I don't think a snow storm justifies nailing on this pitch. I've climbed it in a heavy down pour...not much difference other than tempreature. Yes the top 4th class moves are scary when wet, they are run out. But you can get good cams in before comiting to the blocky scrambleing.

 

Pin's in the mountains are a fifferent story, the Upper-Town wall (routes like TC and DG) is a crag, a place for people to practice their clean aid skills for bigger projects, and it should be preserved as that.

 

Thats just my opinion. bigdrink.gif

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Mr. Collins,

When you refer to the "first pitch", are you talking about the original one off the ground that starts to the right of the regular start for Davis-Holland, Town Crier, and Green Drag-on or the C2 pitch from the ledge atop forementioned start?

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Hey b, just for future reference, the "Narrow Arrow" pitch w/C3 variation on the lower town wall is a good "aid in the rain pitch" it's mostly sheltered. We did it one afternoon and bivied in the rain just to practice with the ledge fly and whatnot. It's a neat place to sleep, just above the trees, but the train sucks!

 

Cheers, sorry to harp on ya about the pins bigdrink.gif

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Pope-

I am surprised that you would advise someone not to discuss ethics on this board! You add a gratuitous dig at bolting, so you obviously think some measure of discussion is appropriate but maybe you have grown tired of back-and-forth discussions? You added a different perspective on this issue (that pounding a pin in a snowstorm may have been acceptable), and I think that the weather conditions certainly make me feel differently about it than I might had it been sunny out but on balance I'd say they probably shouldn't have done the route if they wern't ready to do it with what is generally thought acceptable technique. But the cool thing is that we have seen a couple different viewpoints and, so far, nobody has thought they had to personally attack anyone else. Right or wrong, bcollins and anyone else who reads this have a chance to think about the issue.

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erik said:

erik said:

this is why we should not let old climbers out anymore...

 

too old skool...

 

cant vibe with the clean thing.....

 

though maybe he hand placed them?? benefit of the doubt...

 

 

POPE

 

PLEASE READ ABOVE COMMENT!

 

THANKS!

 

wave.gif

 

Erik....what's with quoting yourself? Can't wait around for somebody to recognize the brilliance and truth in your utterances?

 

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Whats obvious is that Green Dragon is rock climbing not mountaineering.

 

Rock climbing skills constitute a subset of the skills required for mountaineering. Hence, when we rock climb, we are mountaineering. Unless we are rap bolting or clipping rap-placed bolts. Then I'm not sure what you call it, but I am sure it's got more to do with auto-ejaculation than mountaineering.

 

In my humble opinion its not cool to bolt an aid climb so you can free it. Either you have the balls to free it in existing conditions or you don't. Same with clean aid and chicken bolts on nailing route. If you don't have what it takes to do it then be a big enough of a person to admit it.

 

Well put, young man.

 

Cause after a couple pins in a snowstorm its going to be a couple pins in the summer. After a while the route will be C1 downgraded from C2/C3.

 

Ain't necessarily so. I'm not advocating pins on the Lime Lizard, not in the summer to be sure. I'm just saying that whatever you do to save your ass in a snow storm while LEADING a climb is perhaps more justifiable.....Oh fuck you, it is definitely more justifiable than the contrived act of bolting on rap in order to create a future "lead".

 

The truth of the matter is that Pope is a hypocrite. Its ok to pound pins into a clean trade route thus damaging and defacing the rock but its a crime to bolt a blank face. I call bullshit.

 

He put in a pin or two on the easy section. I'm not promoting this kind of activity, I just think it is bullshit....no, I think it's horseshit to condemn the guy (as Lamby did) when you condone rap bolting. I challenge you to show me the pin scar Collins left up there. If you can, chances are it's now a good nut placement. More than likely, the pin scars left by one guy having a snowy adventure aren't even evident. Can you say the same for rap bolting?

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mattp said:

Pope-

I am surprised that you would advise someone not to discuss ethics on this board.

 

I'm advising "b" not to attempt to make any logic out of it.

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To Lamb and the other unknowing purists...........

 

I'm interested in how many of you have actually LED a pitch in full winter conditions? There is an immense difference between climbing in the rain vs. what we experienced on 3/9/03. It was 30 degrees, with frozen rain and snow. Icewater was pouring down not just the route, but the whole wall from approx. 30 inches of wet, new snow deposited hours earlier. Placing a pin doesn't sound too bad now does it.

 

-Rob

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bcollins said:

To Lamb and the other unknowing purists...........

 

I'm interested in how many of you have actually LED a pitch in full winter conditions? There is an immense difference between climbing in the rain vs. what we experienced on 3/9/03. It was 30 degrees, with frozen rain and snow. Icewater was pouring down not just the route, but the whole wall from approx. 30 inches of wet, new snow deposited hours earlier. Placing a pin doesn't sound too bad now does it.

 

-Rob

 

Ok, then the question drifts to whether you should have been on a free climbing crag route in such conditions where you carried pins.

 

 

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