tomcat Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Before the internet came into wide use in about 1995, climbers obtained their "beta" from friends, climbing groups such as the Mazamas and American Alpine Club, and guides like the Beckey bible. Before these groups and the Beckey bible came around, climbers didn't have any beta to go on but a topo map. And before topo maps, well .. climbers were, in all actuality, explorers. But with the wide spread use of the internet and forums such as cascadeclimbers.com, people can obtain beta for climbs very easily, and as a result often know what to expect before they even see the objective. My question is do you think the ease with which we are able to obtain 'beta' is making us lazy or less competent as climbers? For example, do you think if we all consulted and analyzed topo maps instead of asking where the 'obvious gulley' is, that we may be better and more competent climbers by now? On the same token, do you think the ease with which we are able to receive 'beta' over the Internet has produced more skilled climbers by allowing folks to get more done, thereby allowing them to get more practice, thereby making them more skilled as a climber? How about a combination of both? I'm no exception, I sometimes seek beta on this forum, but I try to only seek beta about objectives which are a long way out, for climbs which are very involved, and when I can't afford to get turned away (like in the case of a trip up to the NE Buttress of Goode where there is a long approach, a lot of climbing, and a higher level of commitment). I like surprises on climbs because I think it adds to your experience level. I do, however, check on conditions before all climbs I go on .. this is an advantage of the internet that I'm not willing to give up .. I just don't have the time to climb all the things I want to climb, and make three or four attempts at each in the process. I know many climbers who feel like they're cheating by not figuring out where the 3rd class gulley is by themselves by looking at a topo map instead of getting detailed directions as if they're driving to Target. What do you think? Discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Simpkins Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I think the beta is great. No information is bad information. But if you are seeking adventure, then it may be abused a little. There are still a billion routes out there with no beta on them, however I think that maybe people get reliant on have tons of beta that their sense of adventure may be diminished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 what gets me is people who never bother to search the internet or read books but just come to a bulletin board and post "hey im going to do big 4 tomorrow? can anybody tell me where the route goes? thanks" or "what are some good secxret bivi sites you dont have to pay for in Leavenworth" or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PullinFool Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I agree that the potential for laziness is there. I guess it depends on what you want out of your particular adventure, how you learned to climb, and other considerations. It certainly seems that the linear folks tend to reseaarch more, whereas the experiential climbers tend to just get the basic info, preferring the adventure of the experience. Is one better than the other? Certainly not - like comparing apples to oranges, methinks. But there is certainly more beta out there for the linear thinkers, as well as less work for the lazy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesse_mason Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I think it has produced more sucess rates, sure there are folks who ask for beta on smoke bluff routes and such, but over all i think it has been a wonderful resource. Check out my situation Im sure there are many more like me. I tried climbing around 94 I did not know one person who climbed, me and my friend tried it liked it and kept on doing it. Talk about going to the school of hard knocks we taught ourselves how to lead from books, we had 3 sets of nuts and we did all the routes in our range at the bluffs. I still knew no one who was climbing it wasjust me and my friend. I then stumbled on Bruce Fairly's guide book and I started ( tried to alpine climb ). Basically since I knew no one and had no acess to updated info, I had a very low sucess rate. I did sky pilot from marmot creek " the preferred appraoch" according to fairly, Took me two fuckin days. Now with the current info I can do it in half a day. All im trying to say is that not all of us have friends that climb or parents or faimly that have led us down this path, I never knew about the ACC till I found a trip schedule at the edge. I sometimes think that if I had a mentor or a more experinced climber to ask qeustions to I could avoid silly errors that grind a trip to a halt. Well when I found this board it started to fill in some of those gaps, So it has turned out to be an excellent resource for me. But like every resource in life some folks will abuse it but all in all I think this board has become very handy for people who may not have the resources others have. Cheers jesse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyclimb Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 It is just another tool. Just another way to gain knowledge for a destination. The interest of climbing for climbers is the unknown. For me this unknown is a great learning tool, and a great ride, sure to put a big ole grin on my mug. Anyway, i think idiots who only use one source, will die eventually. But so will i, so who cares what the next fool does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat Posted March 9, 2003 Author Share Posted March 9, 2003 Maybe lazy was a strong word .. perhaps I should have said "less-qualified". I agree with everyone who has responded thus far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Ultimately I am not sure there is a difference in the effort put out when obtaining info from a friend and obtaining it from someone on the net. In a way, the net is responsible for a 'democratization' of the access to available info about trips. I agree that as communication is enhanced and info becomes readily available the adventure aspect decreases, but anyone who wishes to retain that kind of experience can do so. I have wondered whether the net and this site in particular will have (or already started to have) a profound impact on the difficulty of climbs done routinely by the NW community at large. It is similar to the breaking of psychological barriers that occurred during the 80's for rock climbing. As examples of difficult ascents by mere mortals abound, fewer people are in a frozen state of awe when considering doing more difficult climbs. Will we witness an explosion of alpine climbing standards in the NW as interaction between participants is facilitated by sites like this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 i know of some guys who went into mt waddington with no info but the cover of Unknown Mountain and a topo map. not surprisingly they did not summit. IMHO if you plan on doing a route it is your responsibility to gather as much info as possible beforehand, or you have only yourself to blame for failing. a lot of times you atrent gonna knoiw that you have to bring extra big cams or where to find the rappel point in the bushes without the beta. sure you can go out there without finding out, blunder around, succeed by dumb luck or more likely fail. if you want to do it with no knowledge you should be trying for first ascents not reinventing the wheel on a travelled route. but if that floats your boat then dont let my scorn stop you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsydian Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 The internet has just sped up the gathering of the beta. Instead of calling a few freinds of freinds, its all right here. But the beta on the internet has to be taken for what it's worth, free advice, and used with all the other resources like guide books and club route descriptions. Certainly cuts down on the time it takes to gether all the info. Leaves me time to troll the forums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr666 Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 I always thought sport climbing produced lazy climbers. Back in the day, climbing was a full physical and mental commitment. Now, we can park outside exit 38, hike for 5 minutes, climb a 40 ft route, and be done for the day. This was after sleeping in until 11:00, eating a 3 hour lunch, and finally getting to the rock at 4:00. I do not want to start the debate between sport and trad once again. I also sport climb, hell, I just love climbing in general be it aid, bouldering, trad, sport, ice, monkey bars, or anything else out there. Call me hyperactive, but I am always up early when it is a climbing day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Rather than the production of lazy climbers, the internet has had a noticeable effect on the quality of the climbing magazines. First ascent and expedition tales now appear online, if at all. Fiction appears online. Video clips of competitions: online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrest_m Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 AlpenTom said: I like surprises on climbs because I think it adds to your experience level. no amount of beta can eliminate surprises on alpine climbs. i agree with dru, for established routes, beta is good. if you want to explore, more power to you. there's an incredible amount of terrain out there. the golden age of cascade alpinism is NOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Dru said: i know of some guys who went into mt waddington with no info but the cover of Unknown Mountain and a topo map. not surprisingly they did not summit. IMHO if you plan on doing a route it is your responsibility to gather as much info as possible beforehand, or you have only yourself to blame for failing. a lot of times you atrent gonna knoiw that you have to bring extra big cams or where to find the rappel point in the bushes without the beta. sure you can go out there without finding out, blunder around, succeed by dumb luck or more likely fail. if you want to do it with no knowledge you should be trying for first ascents not reinventing the wheel on a travelled route. but if that floats your boat then dont let my scorn stop you Did they accept their failure or blame other people/parties? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 This is an interesting topic. But largely I think its a personal decision, as Alpintom insinuated. Just because there may be more beta available now doesn't mean we have to use it all. I personally like getting beta about the descent and approach, but not so much about the actual climb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 ehmmic said: Dru said: i know of some guys who went into mt waddington with no info but the cover of Unknown Mountain and a topo map. not surprisingly they did not summit. IMHO if you plan on doing a route it is your responsibility to gather as much info as possible beforehand, or you have only yourself to blame for failing. a lot of times you atrent gonna knoiw that you have to bring extra big cams or where to find the rappel point in the bushes without the beta. sure you can go out there without finding out, blunder around, succeed by dumb luck or more likely fail. if you want to do it with no knowledge you should be trying for first ascents not reinventing the wheel on a travelled route. but if that floats your boat then dont let my scorn stop you Did they accept their failure or blame other people/parties? they gloried in their failure which is kind of a strange thing to chestbeat about if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpine_Tom Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 I tend to side with the "it's all good beta" school. Certainly it's true that being able to scour the web for a dozen successful trip reports on, say, Liberty Ridge might temp an unqualified party to give it a shot. But the biggest benefit is in checking conditions – if a road is washed out, or the route is melted out, or you need to get there extra early for camping permits, it’s certainly nice to be able to find out about it before begging a day off from one’s lovely spouse and talking a partner into going, and heading up to get skunked. I read in some climbing book printed years ago that British climbers arrange climbs in pubs, American climbers arrange them on the telephone. You could probably amend that to “northwest climbers arrange climbs on e-mail.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganerd Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 You cannot take the sense of adventure and surprise out of alpine climbing. You might be able to avert it every now and then through obtaining good beta beforehand. Eventually though, we all get schooled by weather, getting off route, and well, bad beta. Personally I think the sooner we get smacked, the better, but I'll still spend my long boring winters looking over guidebooks and this website gathering random information so I won't need to do research when it comes time to go. Hell, what else is winter good for?! (yeah I'm a lazy pussy afraid to get cold. Fuck off) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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